withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

[outofthebox]

Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

OP, I fundamentally disagree with you, but I don't want you to think this is an unhelpful place. The reason people disagree with you is because it i extremely rare here to withdraw children from assembly. Many schools interpret "broadly Christian" extremely loosely and tell "stories" that can be interpreted in many ways.

A private school with a Christian foundation is likely to adopt many of the more traditional tenets of Christianity - hymns and prayers that talk about Jesus specifically. My children go to such a school and AFAIK, no-one is withdrawn from assemblies but it is acceptable - and indeed common - not to pray or sing. The vast majority of the children will be non-Christian, mostly atheist, but with some Muslims. The assembly, and the Christian foundation, while interpreted both liberally and loosely, is considered part of the school's history and ethos.

How thankful are all the teachers reading this thread that they don't teach in a certain 'outstanding private Christian' school?!! Not often speechless, but this one took my breath away

The Romans built the wall because they were scared of us. That last bits not true but the Roman's did build it. There is lots of interesting junk along it like letters home about sock and things.

I do have a religious faith, but I think that education should be secular. Therefore I send my children to the nearest I can get to that. The idea that someone would choose to send their child to a religious school when they profess to feel as strongly as I do, and is an atheist as well, is decidedly odd.

What are you afraid of that will happen when your son hears other children singing religious songs? That he start believing straight away or that he asks you why he can't join in?

I really can't understand how you can choose and pay for a Christian school if you want to avoid religion at all cost, outstanding or not.

I have read so many posts here and I don't get it. Just don't get it. Why on earth would you send your children to a PRIVATE faith school if it's not your faith, and then complain about it and ask them to make all those exceptions? Some people...

What is this arguments about your rights? You have the right to send your children to any private school you want, why didn't you choose one that was not-Christian or non faith based? It's your choice. You should have sorted this out before you sent your child there. Didn't you visit the school? Ask questions? Speak to other parents?

Serious popcorn thread. Speaking as an American & humanist myself.

I don't care what Wikipedia says, you can't be Jewish & humanist at the same time. Just like celebrating Christmas does not make me a Christian.

LOL
Poor girl probably did not expect this many non religious expat yanks to pop up on the thread.
In the US (as y'll know) admitting to not believing is a big no no in many situations.

You left a bit out, lljkk, she's a conservative Jewish humanist. Wonder what Isaac Asimov or Kurt Vonnegut would have made of an anti-liberal humanist?

If anybody was very bored indeed they could make a lovely list of all the intellectual inconsistencies there.

too much like shooting fish in a barrel.

When you visited the school, didn't you notice a Christian theme? We visited a RC school recently and everywhere you looked you were reminded this was a RC faith school, even the badge on the uniform reflected this.

History never was my strong subject at school, IThink :o

Life is certainly very different on this Island from what it was then, mind!

At our OFSTED Outstanding (CofE) primary we had a family from South Africa. The mother was adamant that her child should be able to start school aged 7 but go straight in with his own age group. She went to the school and expounded this view quite strongly "because in South Africa and in Scandinavian countries children don't start school till age 7 and it's an excellent system".

The school told her if she liked that system there so much, go back there.

I must say I have some sympathy with that view. Who do you think you are sending your child to a CofE school and expecting to demand special treatment? If you want faith teaching, go to a faith school for your faith.

Or just let your child learn that different people have different religious beliefs and that's fine.

OP, I went to a private Christian day school. I am Jewish, and, actually, in my year, non Christian children (Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, etc) actually outnumbered Christian.

We went to assembly, we sang the songs, occasionally just mouthing bits about Jesus that were a bit much, we didn't kneel for prayers, we didn't say the Lord's Prayer at all.

We were respectful and polite, much as you are when you stand for the pledge of allegiance, but don't say it. It was easy and straightforward, I made friends from all cultures, I learned while all the time knowing strongly what I believed.

I think that you are overthinking this, honestly. Being a Jewish Humanist is a lovely thing, and really close to my beliefs, hold it proudly and tell everyone about it, but please don't make your special 4 year old son sit by himself in a corridor every day because of it.

outofthebox, can I strongly suggest you read this document which gives guidance on how RE is taught in state schools.

Interestingly it includes the following example of the sort of topic that might be covered:
" in a Year 9 unit comparing Judaism and Humanism, examples could focus
on the beliefs, teachings and sources that motivate them to take
social action to improve the world"

Cross-curricular dimensions such as identity, cultural diversity and community cohesion provide important unifying themes that help young people make sense of the world and give education relevance. They reflect the major ideas and challenges that face individuals and society and can provide a focus for work within and between subjects and across the curriculum as a whole.

piprabbit What a majestic document. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I hope the OP will find it useful.

As an infant teacher I've had several children withdrawn from assembly over the years on various religious grounds all of which I respect as an agnostic I tend to be more understanding than religious colleagues.

My primary focus is always the children and their feelings. I had a 5 year old burst into tears because he just wanted to be with his pals and sing songs (which I have to admit he joined in with if we stayed in the classroom when he didn't wanted to go on the nature because we could hear them) he got cross during the Christmas play which despite being non religious he was withdrawn from. I sat down with mum shared my concerns about his feelings of segregation so we came up with the following plan.

He went to assembly. I would write in the home communication book a summary of assembly. She would then discuss the families views on the subject. Best solution for everyone.

If you legally withdraw from collective worship I can't pick and choose eg attend recycling assembly but not harvest festival

I am an atheist with atheist paretns and atheist children. I wasn't withdrawn from assemblies etc (although my parents said I could be if I had wished) and I don't choose to withdraw my children however I have a lot of sympathy for outofthebox's position and I'm surprised that so many people don't get where she's coming from or are actively hostile to it.

The private, Christian thing is irrelevant in that it is a statutory requirment to hold a daily act of worship in every school. It is the case that secular state schools with multi cultural intake tend to find ways around this that are sensitive to the diversity of their intake but not all do. It is also perfectly reasonable to want your kids to go to a good school and many of the best schools are faith schools.

It's all very well to say your kids can just ignore the relgious stuff or 'learn from it' but if you're a non believer or have a different faith from the one espoused by the school then a great deal of what is taught (often as fact) is really downright offensive.

It's actually not OK for posters to say just ignore it. For example, I deeply resent the fact that my kids might be taught about original sin and told they are sinners (and the more so for being female).

I also object to the images of crucefixion and the notion of a virgin birth etc etc.

I might choose to withdraw my kids BUT I would worry about them losing out from other aspects of the school community that are also delivered during assemblies etc. and that I know that such 'difference' can be picked up on and misused by other kids.

As is evident by attitudes on this thread even from fellow athiests, my kids would have to defend their position as would I and other people evidently wouldn't get it. It would be taking on the whole bedrock of British culture (the what? YOu don't celebrate Christmas?) and the acceptance that that's the way it is and I wouldn't have the strenght for that given that I don't feel that strognyl about it.

However, I have absolute respect for outofthebox's choice and am surprised that other people don't.

loopybear
too right : kids just want to fit in
and no child has a religion
they may be brought up among their parents religion
but nobody has their own one till they are about 10

whendidyoulast
she has sent her kid to a fee paying overtly christian school and then kicked off about its ethos :
without being aware of / interested in the cultural differences between the UK and the US
she also says she's an atheist Jew
THAT is why there is little sympathy

Talkinpeace, but she would be likely to have the same dilemma in a secular state schools. It is a legal requirement to have a daily Christian act of worship.

People are keen to make out that the OP is in the wrong here.

She's not actually.

This aspect of school life is NOT inclusive and is not respectful to non believers regardless of the school.

little baby cheeses
our digger is a great big digger
yup, been there, grew out of it

OP is being unreasonable - read the whole thread

And of course you can consider yourself to be Jewish even if you don't actually believe in God.

There's an awful lot of ignorance here as well as quite a worrying lack of respect for others' values and beliefs.

It's not OK to say you just put up with it if you find it offensive.

And just because it's the way it works in this country does not make it right.

If I wasn't concerned about the impact on my kids and aware that I'd be taking on the whole of British culture I'd do the same thing.

I can't stand the stuff that my kids are taught on a daily basis in assembly.