withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

[outofthebox]

Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

I went to a school in the States for a while. Every morning we had to stand up and pledge allegiance to the flag. Being a Brit it felt very culturally awkward, plus there was no way I was going to pledge allegiance. We also had huge pep rallies that felt like religious fervour and frankly terrified me. I had to get on with it and stand there awkwardly thinking teen rebellious thoughts.

So whilst American (non-religiously affiliated schools) do not have prayers or assemblies, they do have some aspects that must feel very similar.

now I've read the rest of the thread

If it's a private school I don't think you have the right of withdrawal in the same way as a state one.

'Pep rallies' make me think of Nuremburg with cheerleaders.

s @ Twirly!

What an interesting thread...the vast chasm between UK and US culture laid bare!

The solution would seem to me to be very simple. If you don't like his Christian private school move him.

I thought the comment about not wanting your precious gifted child to be bullied when he is (at your own request) taken out of any opportunity to take part in the wider life of the school, and instead given extra special lessons for the extra specially gifted was ridiculous, but I let it go...

But now this:

but until you've had someone say an antisemitic remark... until you've had to worry that some violent act like grave desecration and Rabbi murdering happens again in this country... it is hard to explain the occasional uneasiness one might feel...

Is this in reference to your remarks about the expulsion of the Jews in 1290? Are you seriously suggesting that some random person making rude comments (which are strictly against the law of this country, by the way) will result in, or is evidence of, the entire country going back to beliefs that we had over 700 years ago? Why on earth would an anti-Semitic comment lead you to worry that grave desecration and Rabbi murdering will happen again?

What the actual fuck?

OP, if I didn't know MN better, I'd say you are behaving like someone who is utterly bonkers.

OP I didn't say the UK was perfect, its just not the parts you're fighting against that are the problems. You get a few violent thugs everywhere, when the general reaction to them in condemnation then it may well not be the system that is the problem.

There is an attitude in England (cannot speak for the rest of the UK) that we should try to accept other people's beliefs and that education is important to minimise community divisions*. Its from this attitude that people are criticising your desire to remove your DS from RE.

Just speak to the school, explain what your concerns are and ask what the content of the assemblies is/what the aims of RE in that school are. If you don't feel reassured then ask if your DS can sit those parts out and maybe get books which you think will help his understanding of your family's culture for him to read in that time.

• The aim is C of E/Catholic and Christian/Muslim because these are the pairings that most lead to violence in the UK.

Another possible solution - Jewish state school. He wouldn't be exposed to the nativity play, and you would have the right to remove him from assembly (though I think as the one by us very reasonably states in their brochure, having selected a school with a religious ethos, it would seem a strange choice to withdraw from RE/assembly...)

amistillsexy The OP used the expulsion of the Jews as "an example of what can happen as a marginalization of opposing reigious belief"

Sadly Jewish grave desecration is not something confined to the history books. It still seems to pop up on the news once every few years. Rare, yes, but not rare enough.

I think I might be a bit ungifted and talentless, but the g&t thing seems like a total non sequitur added to show us just how clever and special he is/you are.
Mind you, if he is an avowed atheist at 3 and a half, having made up his own mind (not of course influenced by parents), then he is indeed well in advance of my three children.

In dcs school they did a nativity, they also celebrated Hannukah, and Diwali, and when Eid falls in December, Eid as well. You seem to see the christian stuff, and not notice the rest

DS1's class enacted the hindi festival of Holi, yesterday. They wanted to do it at the right time, but it was snowing, then - not good weather for throwing water and coloured flour at each other. Currently, all the children in his class are white, mostly working class. This is one of the least multi-cultural parts of the country, but, even without this influence, most of the children find this stuff fascinating.

outofthebox I know that some American atheists have a very hard time and are even ostracised by their families, communities, etc but that's not something that really happens, here. Of course, if you pay to send your child to a school with a Christian mission statement, they are in danger of sticking out like a sore thumb, particularly if you insist they spend portions of the day segregated.

I I withdraw DC from collective worship and the local vicars weekly indoctrination visit.

Don't bother about Christmas/Easter stuff.

It was no issue, they need a new letter each year but other than that no problems.

but the jews were expelled from the UK in the 1800's... expelled

And there's a big wall through the Northeast of England and Cumbria that the scots built to keep the Romans out. These days, you can cross the English-Scottish border quite freely. Britain does have a bloody (and sometimes shameful) history, very far removed from current reality for the majority of people.

OP I won't waste my time attempting to engage you in rational discussion - others have tried and failed.

I will simply tell you that your stance is utterly mad, inconsistent and over-entitled and offer you a

And there's a big wall through the Northeast of England and Cumbria that the scots built to keep the Romans out.

!!!

StarBallBunny There is wishy washy Christianity woven into every thread of society. It immunises us against evangelical beliefs and underpins our liberal society.
Perfectly put. I may quote you forever!

This is exactly why DH and I had our DCs baptised even though we are both atheists. We were brought up in wishy washy CoE families and it pleased the grandparents no end. Both DCs went to a village school with a resident vicar. Both DCs have grown up as committed atheists.

The last nativity play I was in charge of had a Hindu Mary, a Muslim Joseph and a Sikh Gabriel. This was an inner city state primary like many up and down the country. What intrigued me was what the OP said about the Hebrew lessons. What did she expect him to be taught about and why? I feel sorry for the poor little mite - g and t and atheist and only 3 and a half!

outofthebox in dd's first year of primary school she played Mary in the nativity. She got the role because she was the only child in her class of 26 who knew the story of the nativity. I'm agnostic, she knew the story because it was a book that we had at home and I had read it to her. To her it was a nice story the issue of it being about the birth of Christ totally passed her by.
Likewise when my youngest dd corrected all the "spelling mistakes" replacing God with dog her teacher merely smiled and we laughed about it later it's not a big thing in schools here.
In our local schools it is only Jehova's Witnesses who withdraw their children (Muslim families choose to send their children to the Roman Catholic schools), I do think it marks them out different not because of their faith but because they don't join in with their classmates.

OP is no longer here.
And she was never listening anyway.

Surely Jewish atheist is a contradiction in terms? PLenty of private schools are not religious. Why pick one that is?

"two nations divided by a common language"

my head is spinning.

If you are there OP I hope you feel you've got a clearer picture of the types of school, rules about worship and cultural context. I'm sure if you are proud to be pushy you'd much rather push at the doors most likely to open.

Your son is fortunate to have a mum so determined to do right by him.

Amazing what a clear picture of a personality can come out of a couple of dozen posts on a message board.