withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

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Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

A state school would have to make provision for him to miss assembly, a private school is under no such obligation.

I don't think she is getting stick for not wanting her child to say prayers, it's more the not wanting to say prayers plus learn about (or overhear) any religion at all and wanting this to happen after specifically choosing a Christian school. It's not the same as a family who are stuck with a faith school as that is what is available where they live and that is what the LEA have allocated them.

I think you may have mis understood original sin but if we are talking about the Adam/Eve/Apple story I think it's important to know it culturally. It comes up again and again.

Whendidyoulast - the private thing is very relevant because the requirement to hold a daily act of collective worship is one that applies to maintained schools. So, in a sense, OP would be in a stronger position in a state school because she would then have the right to withdraw her child that is the flip-side of the requirement to hold a daily act of collective worship.

Personally, I have no problem with my kids learning about other religions but that's not the same as them being told that they are sinners.

I find that incredibly offensive but it's standard fare in assemblies up and down the country regardless of whether the school is a faith school.

Don't tell me that I should just put up with that.

And really it's not good enough to say that I can always withdraw my kids from assembly with no alternative provision either.

Quite simply, schools should be secular and so should assemblies.

Some enlightened schools do have provision for different assemblies for those of different and no faiths. Good.

While I agree that state schools absolutely should be secular, independent schools are just that. And it is a choice to send your child to one.

ComeInto, the school the OP is at DOES allow her to withdraw her kids. That's not the problem is it?

The problem is that there's nothing else for them to do.

That would be the same problem in any other school.

When I was at state and non faith school it was the same. There were a few Jehovah's Witness kids who were withdrawn and they just sat in their form rooms. They also missed out on all the other aspects of school life that come with assemblies like school notices etc.

FGS, the private/state school thing is red herring.

The OP would have the same problem in a state school.

whendidyoulast, if that's your experience it's pretty unusual. Most schools don't have assembly every day, but much more infrequently, and they don't include religious elements in a significant proportion of the assemblies that do take place.

And I have never ever been in a school assembly that came anywhere close to telling children that they were sinners.

Secondary schools are quite different to primaries IME. I was astonished by the religious references in my DC's primary. I have not stood through a religious assembly in 12 years of secondary teaching.

I think part of the problem here is that the religious thing is so entrenched that we often don't even notice it and can't conceive of how it could be offensive.

So, actually the standard Christmas assembly remembering that we're not opening presents but remembering the birth of Jesus is taken for granted but might be really quite offensive and upsetting if your kids are Jewish or Muslim and you don't celebrate Christmas.

It isn't a red herring in the context of the OP's question, as she has no statutory right to insist her child is removed.

'And I have never ever been in a school assembly that came anywhere close to telling children that they were sinners.'

Really?

The Lord's Prayer requires us to to ask for us to be forgiven our sins.

I object to that assumption.

But it isn't a red herring, because there's a difference between withdrawal as of legal right and withdrawal as a result of personal negotiation with the school. In this instance, it seems to be unclear for the moment what the school's eventual stance is going to be and I hope OP can negotiate the outcome that she wants.

I notice it. In fact, I said I was surprised by it. I have a religious faith myself, and went to faith schools. I was expecting something quite different in a non faith primary. It was an eye opener.

It IS a red herring in that the school in question is NOT objecting to the withdrawal of the children.

And EVERY school in the country has to have a daily act of Christian worship by law.

So, ONCE AGAIN, she would have the same problem in ANY school

As would anyone else with her beliefs in most schools.

Not sins but trespasses, at my school - King James version.

And if you can honestly say that you haven't trespassed against anyone and mightn't benefit from the opportunity to reflect on that, or to think about forgiving others, then you're clearly on a higher moral plane than I can even aspire to.

*EVERY school in the country has to have a daily act of Christian worship by law.

But most schools do not. Even though it is the law.

You chose to send your child there, you have a right to withdraw from RE. I think your rights end there.
What more do you expect the school to do?

The problem is not that the withdrawal it is the fact that ALL schools require a daily act of worship and that if you withdraw your kid, your kid will miss out.

So schools pay lipservice to being inclusive and respectful of all and no religions but, in practice, they're not.

I feel the same as the OP but I don't withdraw my kids precisly because I don't want to deal with the sort of consequences that the OP is having to or the sort of attitudes on this thread where people can't understand the problem.

The problem is not with the OP. It's with the legal requirement for a daily act of Christian worship in the 21st century.

Well, the Dept of Education website says the duty in England to provide an act of collective worship is one for maintained schools. Here. Perhaps you could point me to a source for a similar requirement on independent schools?

I object to the specifically Christian concept of 'sins' or 'trespasses'.

And that's just the Lord's Prayer - obviously very prominent.

Do you see? This stuff has become so entrenched that many people are unable to see how it might be offenisve.

As is patently obvious on this thread.

why choose a Christian school if you are against religion?

Jewish schools?

I din't disagree with you about state schools. And while I am about choosing to educate a child in the private sector, if you make that choice you are making a choice. IME of faith schools, the religion goes beyond assembly and RE. Choosing that ethos for an atheist child seems perverse.

I think the daily act of worship should be scrapped (although I do like a nice assembly and I wouldn't want to go down the route of never being able to use religious stories/references in case they are misconstrued as 'worship') However I don't think it's reasonable to choose a religious school and then complain that the withdrawn child is separated from friends and expect the childs G&T work to be scheduled at the same time. They have withdrawn him from play practice. The fact that they haven't put him in a soundproof booth with a few friends and a G&T teacher doesn't mean that they are a shower of bastards.

Two thirds of schools do not have a daily assembly. And notice this distinction between assembly and church:

'Collective worship is when pupils of all faiths and none come together to reflect - it should not be confused with corporate worship when everyone is of the same belief.'

(not linking as I got it off the DM, but you can google it as easily as I did.)