withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

[outofthebox]

Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

Being an atheist over here rally isn't a big deal. It's pretty much the norm. Of course in a private Christian school it's likely to be unusual!!

Even our politicians can openly declare their atheism & still be elected!

Honestly, the US is way more a religious state than we are!

RE is very, very definitely not woven throughout the curriculum in state schools (your private school may be a different kettle of fish).
Most ordinary state schools mention religion only when they have to (in an RE lesson, actually most schools call it RS, Religious Studies) or when it crops up as an aside in a cultural celebration.

RE is a separate, minor subject in my DCs' private schools too. If the OP has somehow managed to enrol her child at a private Catholic school she might find religion intruding more into other lessons, but most private schools, despite having a broadly Christian ethos, know that the majority of their parents are not religious or not Christian.

oops- off by a few years hehe... still, - EXPELLED!

In 1290, King Edward I issued an edict expelling all Jews from England. The expulsion edict remained in force for the rest of the Middle Ages. The edict was not an isolated incident, but the culmination of over 200 years of increased persecution. Oliver Cromwell permitted Jews to return to England in 1657, over 350 years since their banishment by King Edward I, in exchange for finance.

Hi,
I don't think you need worry about your son being bullied. Really, no one is going to insist that he becomes a Christian. My seven year old daughter is clear that she is an atheist (like her dad), whereas my son loves to come to church with me. It wouldn't occur to her dad to withdraw her from assembly where they sing some nice 'Family of man' type songs, celebrate children's achievements, have ethical talk from different religions and perhaps do a prayer about helping us all to be nice to each other. While it's a state school, so they could withdraw, none of the approx. 20 % of hijab-wearing (so I assume reasonably devout) Moslem mums seem to have taken this option. RE will be about different religions but will concentrate a little more on Christianity as it's the religion that has influenced British history, culture and literature most. I really feel he is going to feel far more excluded if you keep him out of assembly. Could he remain respectfully silent during hymns and prayers if he felt joining in would compromised his beliefs?

so are you Jewish or an atheist? I'm now confused.

Fillyjonk
The "little baby cheeses" in KS1 were rather irritating, and vicar who came in once a week was a twonk but I let it wash past - I even let my Mum take them to church
on the basis of 'what is banned is immediately attractive'
and by half way through KS2 it had stopped being an issue.
We all still love carol concerts but admire the architecture rather than saying any prayers!

Two of my kids went to school for a term in US, and can recite the Oath of Allegiance. They look back on the term as a 'cultural learning experience'.

Their schools here (not in the UK) have been Anglican primary and Catholic secondary. They aren't baptised. They did religion all the way through - again as a cultural experience, part of history (we are in Ireland), and because they will have to attend funerals, baptisms and weddings of friends and relatives which will be in churches and other places of worship. They will understand what is going on and how to behave.

Opting out in their schools was 'wait outside' type stuff; all teachers were involved in collective assemblies, nativity plays etc. In secondary the 'opt outs' did homework at the back of the class.

So is the son of god actually a babybel? Out of the mouths of babes...

Stepmum- yes it makes me feel much much better.

Although.... I will defend some aspect of the religious people believe it or not.... I have a tremendous respect for their very very morally conservative value system (except dealing with gay ppl)!

In truth the liberalism here is uncomfortable- although that is a cultural and political discussion and doesn't belong in this thread- smack!

Talkinpeace- I am a jewish humanist. Here this will help you:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanistic_Judaism

Expulsion of the Jews, which happened all over Europe for centuries, was largely about finance. It's popular to expel your creditors rather than pay them.

So would you say you were culturally Jewish but not religiously Jewish? If so you should be delighted - you're in an entire country filled with cultural but not religious Christians!

The USA didn't exist when the expulsion of the Jews was in force it was that long ago. Its not exactly an enduring cultural belief now, religion isn't considered to be important to most of the population of the UK any more.

Will you also judge the UK for hanging people who steal a lamb? This was a punishment at that time.

And yes, RE is just to tell children what the major religions believe. Its 51% Christian because to access a lot of English history and literature you need to understand Christianity more than any other religion (because that's been the majority religion since Anglo-Saxon times).

Ah, but apparently we're liberal which makes her uncomfortable

Titchy I would be delighted if ppl didn't go around saying, oh you don't celebrate christmas??? Why???

HELLO.... what don't ppl get about being Jewish?? I've NEVER celebrated Christmas- neither did LOTS of ppl where I am from and it didn't make me feel bad- we had Hanukkah of course (well and my moms bday which is Dec 25) which is tons of fun!

I like to watch carolers and sing "winter" songs... but nothing like "away in a manger".... I'm really grateful I wasn't asked to either.

No MRS Hoarder but until you've had someone say an antisemitic remark... until you've had to worry that some violent act like grave desecration and Rabbi murdering happens again in this country... it is hard to explain the occasional uneasiness one might feel...

But to most Brits, "celebrating" Christmas means getting and giving presents, having a couple of days off work and spending time with the family, eating and drinking more than usual, listening to mostly secular Christmas songs, having a tree in the house, enjoying carols but not thinking about what the words mean, etc etc. It's not going to church.

The page about humanistic Judaism is interesting. I wonder if there's such a thing as humanistic Christianity, I think i would like to be a part of that.

YES Twirly... go have a good laugh!

Yes. You're basically saying that you are culturally Jewish but don't believe. We've said that England is full of people who are culturally Christian but don't believe.

moggle- from the sounds of it... most Brits ARE Humanistic Christians.. heheh....

Bit of an aside, but your last post was very interesting. I'm a (Unitarian) Christian and (probably alone in my social circle) a churchgoer. I find US Christianity perplexing in that it seems to be very conservative socially. Was astonished to find that Christian guy I stayed with in Denver was really opposed to welfare, whereas here it is often churches that will challenge government cutbacks (see e.g.www.ekklesia.co.uk/files/truth_and_lies_report_final.pdf). Let me know if you do start another thread, as it would be interesting to engage!

Most schools have no problem if a parent requests their child to be withdrawn from religious occasions, whether it is because of legal rights in the state sector or common courtesy in the private sector. Voluntarily excluded children at our school are welcome to sit and read by the office when any Christian church services are taking place, but the school is not obligated to provide any teaching for them at this time as it is parental choice to exclude them from such activities (and frankly most faith backgrounds attend the Christian services and sing Christian songs in assemblies etc...because their parents reasonably understand that this is part of life in a UK school and any concerns of questions about what their children believe tend to be dealt with at home). If you chose to deliver your child late to school each day, then that is reasonably what his attendance record should show.

Your insistence of removing your child from anything that disagrees with your own personal beliefs (despite choosing to send him to an overtly Christian school) ironically sounds like your own form of indoctrination, an accusation more frequently made against Christianity (and presumably part of your reasons for not wanting him to be exposed to it... but hold on, you chose a Christian school...?????)

RE in the UK sounds very removed from the US - it is about educating children as to what a wide range of different faiths and religions believe. What a shame US schools don't do a better job of this.

Sadly much of the teaching about Christianity in this country is watered down into being 'nice' and 'tolerant' - I can understand you wanting to protect your child from such dangerous ideas.

And wtf is a Jewish Humanist Atheist - surely these are three different faiths?

Yes welfare is something to be opposed to- this is generally the view that it is something to be ashamed of... also, churches are supposed to provide for their members if at all possible...

bye... have to collect my son... thanks.

I've actually had an antisemitic remark directed at me, though I'm not Jewish. It was shocking. I was raised Catholic and we have just passed the height of the N Ireland marching season where the Protestant community likes to burn effigies of the pope and, this year, a hanging effigy of a specific priest who committed suicide. I'm well aware of hate and the way it actually bonds you more firmly to the part of you that is being targeted.

England is not like that.