withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

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Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

Religious stories are cultural. They're woven through literature.

I think many people in the UK also would like to see the separation between church and state in state schools (myself included) and are somewhat irritated that in some rural areas such as where we live there is no viable choice of a non-church school. However, private is different - you have bought the right to choose the school's underlying ethos - as I understand it there are also private christian schools in the US. This is why I think we find it very strange that you have chosen as you have (and why you may feel you have got little support and sympathy).

Hi Talkinspace... yes there are a few good points there although it doesn't really exclude the religious except for biology and maybe for the lessons on the big bang... It is otherwise all inclusive! I wonder if the religious ppl can just choose to be absent from those classes. Well they have tons of private schools to accomodate the religious don't they and of course in many central states there is the battle that is the afterschool biblestudy program. I kind of think that the state not taking a stance and promoting a single religion is a good thing. Like I said, the Brit system of muddling along might be more palatable if there was not that "preferential" treatment to christianity........

Hey my son is just north of 3.5 - like I said, I expected to have the same issues no matter what school I sent him to...

I understand where you are coming from and I too believe that religion should have no part in school life other than as a topic, same as history or geography.

More importantly I want dd to make her own mind up and for that she needs to be exposed to various religions.

I have always maintained that by teaching about religion the way we do, in the state school system, we have avoided (in mainland UK) many of the excesses of religious belief and attitude that you have to endure in the US. Most RE here is taught as an academic subject and should be taught be qualified people in exactly the same way as any other academic discipline.

Exactly what Catsrus said. It's the pledging to a flag that seems bizarre and ludicrous.

diplo- yes I understand that private doesn't have to accomodate me and can make arrangements to work with the other options but still have the same issues in a state school although.... the acceptance of atheists is not what I expected to hear...

Yes I don't think atheists get such a bad rap here as most Brits aren't churchgoers. I do think you are worrying about a situation that just isn't going to happen - that's why most people on this post are being incredulous - they're not trying to wind you up, it's just that Britain isn't like this with religion.

Also by not allowing your son to learn about any other religions, I feel you are behaving similarly to religious parents who force their kids into their religion and don't allow them to explore other possibilities. I'm sorry but he's 4, he doesn't have his own religious beliefs (or non-beliefs) yet, his only beliefs are directly from you. Let him develop his own beliefs as he grows. Everyone (even the Muslim lady in question) smiled indulgently on my bus this morning when a really little kid (maybe just 3) piped up "Mummy, why does that lady have a scarf on her head? It's TOO HOT for a scarf!"; but a teenager asking those kinds of questions because they've had no religious education is another matter entirely.

I think the fact that has been repeated over and over on this thread - that devout Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus do not withdraw their kids from RE and in the vast majority of cases not from assemblies either - should tell you something. Please listen - we're not lying!!!

catsrus- maybe in recent times... but the jews were expelled from the UK in the 1800's... expelled... this is an example of what can happen as a marginalization of opposing reigious belief.

the acceptance of atheists is not what I expected to hear

Ask. Find out. Listen to people (those on this thread would be a good start).

Stop viewing the world through American glasses.

So - now you understand that being an atheist isn't an issue in the UK, will you consider sitting in on an assembly and maybe relaxing your principles a little?

Oh and when we lived in the USA for 2 years, my younger brother refused to pledge allegiance every morning, I did, just for an easier life and it didn't mean much to me either way.
That's another thing you'll never find here. Sure we respect our flag but the "worship" of it every morning in school?!! just seems bizarre here. Most UK schools wouldn't even have a Union Jack flying.

"In the US, if you were to say you were atheist in a school you'd get a huge opposition and likely be bullied." This is really not something you need to worry about in the UK. Being an atheist is absolutely normal - if anything, you'd be much more likely to be seen as weird if you were an evangelical Christian. Or, as someone pointed out further up the thread, if your parents insisted on withdrawing you from assembly and RE lessons...

Why did you decide to send your son to a Christian school when you clearly don't agree with its ethos?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Oh where oh where are these ATHIEST schools you speak of? My daughters go to a NON DENOMINATIONAL state school and they have Collective Worship, some services in the local church, one of the Governors is the local vicar and the education is "broadly Christian in character".

Some of that comes from legislation that schools have to abide by. There are no such things as non-Christian schools, unless it's a school specifically for another faith.

Thank you for starting the thread, OP. I haven't gone as far as withdrawing my daughters from things and don't actually object to RE lessons per se or Nativity plays. It's more the Collective Worship and anything which teaches that God is a fact which bothers me. I would like to know the experiences of other parents who have withdrawn their children from assembly etc.

Have you actually spoken to any British Jewish people on their experiences or are you basing your expectations of living in modern Britain solely on history books?

That is if you can actually hear me with your fingers jammed firmly in your ears...

"In the US, if you were to say you were atheist in a school you'd get a huge opposition and likely be bullied." This is really not something you need to worry about in the UK. Being an atheist is absolutely normal - if anything, you'd be much more likely to be seen as weird if you were an evangelical Christian.

^ This. I went to church up until the age of about 14 and would never admit to it at (state, not CofE) school.

The vast majority of those who would loosely come under the Christian category attend church for christenings, weddings and funerals. The school nativity play is a common cultural bond of the innkeeper saying the wrong thing and the sheep falling over and an angel crying whilst grandparents sit dewy eyed watching. In a non church school (one that isn't specifically identified as such) it's unlikely that more than 10% of those watching will set foot in a church in the last year for non family events.

I was glad to see that you have finally taken on board the point about atheists. Your son will be the norm if he is atheist. He will not get bullied and if there are conversations, then all views are respected.

Your comment about the 'after school Bible study' also shows one of the differences between US and UK. Most Brits even Christians would be uncomfortable with an after school Bible study, it is just too, well, religious for us!

And Christians here do not sign up to the whole US christian agenda. There are many Christians who have good friends who are gay, who are happy to believe in evolution, who go danecing, listen to 'rock and roll' and even drink alcohol, and who live in a comfortable mix with friends of all religions and none.

Listen to what people are saying. It is different.

I have a great respect for you not wanting an overtly religious education for your son, but you need to look at what actually is going on in school

You'd more likely be bullied in a UK school if you said you did believe in god.

Fillyjonk the OP's in the private system.

I get where you are coming from Fiilyjonk. When dd came home in reception telling me all about the baby cheesus and how it MUST be true `cos her teacher told her I really struggled. But I just did the "yes dear that's what some people believe" speech.

By year 2 she decided she wanted to be a Hindu and now in year 3 she is an atheist.

But she is an atheist with a good understanding or other religions.

piprabbit- possibly the assembly aspect... though still not going to do the nativity thing or the prayer thing. I think nativity can be accomodated as we will just be on holiday each year for it (like this year)- don't know about the prayer thing... I might just enroll my son locally if it helps and they don't do prayers and therefore can avoid some issues... if re is not woven throughout the curriculum that could help too. Will def have a chat with hubby and do more research re locally....

ljny - sorry if my comments upset you. Are you a JW/PB? I have to say that most people would find their beliefs and practices a little extreme (no blood transfusions, no associating with anyone outside their own church etc). Of course there may be other religious groups who insist on withdrawal from school assemblies, but those are the main two I have heard about in the UK.

'maybe in recent times... but the jews were expelled from the UK in the 1800's... expelled...'

From Wiki

Emancipation and prosperity, 1800s

Main article: Emancipation of the Jews in England

With Catholic Emancipation in 1829, the hopes of the Jews rose high; and the first step toward a similar alleviation in their case was taken in 1830 when William Huskisson presented a petition signed by 2,000 merchants and others of Liverpool. This was immediately followed by a bill presented by Robert Grant on 15 April of that year which was destined to engage the Parliament in one form or another for the next thirty years.

In 1837, Queen Victoria knighted Moses Haim Montefiore; four years later, Isaac Lyon Goldsmid was made a baronet, the first Jew to receive a hereditary title. The first Jewish Lord Mayor of London, Sir David Salomons, was elected in 1855, followed by the 1858 emancipation of the Jews. On 26 July 1858, Lionel de Rothschild was finally allowed to sit in the British House of Commons when the law restricting the oath of office to Christians was changed; Benjamin Disraeli, a baptised Christian of Jewish parentage, was already an MP.

In 1868, Disraeli became Prime Minister having earlier been Chancellor of the Exchequer. In 1884 Nathan Mayer Rothschild, 1st Baron Rothschild became the first Jewish member of the British House of Lords; again Disraeli was already a member. (Though born a Jew, Disraeli's baptism as a child qualified him as eligible for political aspirations, presenting no restrictions regarding a mandated Christian oath of office.)

By 1780 the flourishing Jewish community in Birmingham was centered on its synagogue. The men organizes collective action to defend the reputation and promote the interests of the community. Rituals regarding funerals and burials brought together the rich and the poor, the men and the women. Intermarriage outside the community was uncommon. however, the arrival of East European Jews after 1880 caused a split between the older, assimilated, middle-class Anglicized Jews, in the much poorer new immigrants who spoke Yiddish.

By 1882, 46,000 Jews lived in England and, by 1890, Jewish emancipation was complete in every walk of life. Since 1858, Parliament has never been without Jewish members. Synagogues were built openly, in some cases large, architecturally elaborate Victorian Gothic buildings such as the one in Newington Green, North London.