withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

[outofthebox]

Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

Rabbitstew how can being made to participate in something that makes you feel uncomfortable or alienated help make you feel like you belong? In my experience it does quite the opposite. Perhaps this is because I have actively turned away from my faith upbringing, but on the few occasions that I have to attend services, or when prayers are incorporated into something I am doing I really really dislike it. That isn't really an experience i want my children to share.

You choose to send your children to a Christian private school, it's not like they had to go to the only state school with a place available as some people experience. You choose to pay for that school so you should go along with that ethos. It's a learning opportunity for your children and you can discuss the different aspects of religion with them.

I do not think that there is a place for prayers to god in school. I personally don't believe in any god. I don't like the asking "him" for things and thanking "him" for things - it makes me very uncomfortable.

However, I went to a school leavers service last week in the most beautiful old church. There were no prayers to god and no hymns. The vicar quoted St Paul to the children and gave them a message about making the right decisions in life and choosing the right path (no mention of it being a path to the door of Jesus) - nicely ambiguous. There was one "prayer" which didn't start with the words "Dear god" but was rather a rallying call to wish the leavers well on their way in the world.

I think this type of diluted service/assembly is the way forward.

nooka - it sounds like you actively dislike prayers, etc, because of your upbringing - ie your parents... Your children won't share those reactions if you haven't thrust religion upon them throughout their childhood. They might react to your extreme aversion to it, though, and not necessarily in the way you wish. What makes you think great antipathy towards religion in front of your children is so much better than immersing them in something they don't like?

Lizzy - um, politics have an active influence on our lives, religion is just whatever fairy stories help people to feel better about life. So unless religion is actively influencing politics (which, sadly, it often does), comparing interest in the two is not really valid.

Also there is a difference between politics and children's assemblies, which is what this discussion is about rather then religion per se.

I agree with exexpat who gave one of the first replies to this. Don't make too big a deal about it.

I'm an athiest (stroppy variety, member of NSS) and my wife is an athiest (less stroppy except after a couple of glasses of Sauv Blanc variety) but I'm happy that my kids attend assemblies and take part in the Nativity play. It's part of the cultural heritage of the UK.

We have had discussions at home with the kids about this - along the lines of "some people believe ... but we don't". I suspect the kids are a bit confused in some ways but I'm sure they'll figure it out with time. Same as they will figure out some other things (Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy).

Taking out of assembly and not letting them take part in the Nativity Play has more downsides than upsides.

Of course it does- makes it way more exciting if you are taken out. They are also confused. I had 9yr old JW twins- they hadn't a clue other than 'mummy wouldn't like it''

Yes,zigster - and as the OP is American its probably even easier for her to present it to her kid as a quaint British custom.

I'm afraid I didn't read the whole thread, the part I caught up with is all about the collective worship part but I see the OP also mentioned withdrawing from RE. IMO RE - so long as it is pretty much an unbiased examination of different religions, which is the case for most schools - is a good thing. I've heard Dan Dennett saying it'd be great if they could do comparative religion in US public schools as currently kids tend to be ignorant of anything except their parents' world view. As an atheist I'm really glad my DD has learned something about various religions - we didn't cover anything except Christianity when I was at school.

(though as the OP has for some reason chosen a Christian private school their RE syllabus might need examining, they could be doing anything)

The OP didn't ask for our opinions on her beliefs.

OP you definitely need to go state. A Jehovah's Witness friend's daughter has just finished her 4th year at our school and has always been withdrawn from assemblies, nativity plays and birthday celebrations. The quality of alternative activities has varied. This year, for instance, the child has spent lots of time being a helper for a younger year-group and the mum is happy with this. It helps that mum grew up in this town and has her own experiences of withdrawal to guide her. I believe the little girl also does her homework and if some one-to-one is due to her they would consider doing that in withdrawal time. It seems like a good idea to me.

I am in the north where there is a powerful history of dissent.

Had you said you were a member of a minority religion I think you would have been given better answers. Atheism isn't accepted in the same way - I don't know why.

goon
OP wants to be Jewish and atheist at the same time
Jews are most certainly a small minority religion

Talking peace, the OP has strong views. So does my JW friend. My school treats my JW friend's beliefs with respect. The OP is entitled (in state schools!) To equal levels of respect.

Has she been anything but an atheist I don't think people would have felt so free to attack her strongly held beliefs.

and really, who are you to tell the OP she can't be what she professes herself to be? You have no right to tell her what she can or can't be.

goon -Hahahahahaha! People always come out with this "if you said you were a member of a minority religion people would accept it"

No. Muslims for one group, are regularly slagged off at length on Mumsnet. If an O.P with the same tone as this one had been Muslim, we'd be on to a 1000 posts of pure flame by now, easily.

Atheists are extremely well-represented on MN and on this very thread - most posters have been atheists and they still disagree with the O.P in addition to giving her some very good advice from their experiences.

So a Muslim would also be told to just change a decision she had made based on deeply held beliefs?

That's troubling if so......

I think that the OP was very polite and restrained really....

Goon - a Muslim would be told

1. You are brainwashed and oppressed anyway.

2)There would be a huge, huge side discussion on Saudi Arabia, Iran and face veiling

3)Your values are ruining the country - you should leave if you don't like it here

and so on and so forth.

So, I think the O.P has had an easy time in comparison.

Gosh... I've been on quite a few religion-related threads and never come across anything like what you describe in relation to Muslims (except a bit about veiling). Perhaps you're confusing MN with certain newspapers?

"Except a bit about veiling"?!

Ask some of the Muslim Mners on here and see what they think.

One low point was a poster declaring that Muslim women on MN shouldn't be on threads discussing veiling etc, as we were brainwashed so our opinions didn't matter.

I am a bit saddened by your extremely patronising reaction. I can tell the difference between MN and other newspapers, thanks.

Besides, you only have to go on any thread discussing rape (particularly when it's by a partner) or claiming benefits to see viewpoints straight from certain newspapers being parroted on here, so it is extremely likely that other subjects would receive similar treatment here. And they do.

Woah rabbitstew that's a hell of a lot of assumptions you are making there!

I don't dislike prayers because of my upbringing or my parents! I dislike prayers because I am an atheist. Sure as an adult I don't like a lot of what the Catholic church stands for or the embedded misogyny in Christianity but as a child I didn't really question it much, in fact I went to confirmation classes entirely voluntarily. I don't think my parents 'thrust' religion on me at all, it simply was an important part of their lives that they shared with their children like most families of faith. My only antipathy as a child was about having to get up early on Sunday mornings

I don't have an extreme aversion to religion or express great antipathy towards religion in front of my children - why did you imagine this to be the case? As we are a family of atheists/agnostics we talk about beliefs and faith a fair bit, but mostly from an ethical, political or historical point of view. When my more religious family are about I don't talk about religion at all (esp as we have two ordained members of clergy in the family) and simply cringe silently when they evangelise (which they aren't too bad at, but sometimes the temptation is obviously too great).

Religion cannot be dismissed as fairy stories when it is a part of significant political events throughout the world. How can the Arab-Israeli conflicts be understood without reference to religion or the tension between India and Pakistan or Northern Ireland. These are not political conflicts they are based in religion.

Furthermore an understanding of English Literature and Renaissance Art for example depends on a knowledge of Christianity.

Sorry, nooka - I obviously interpreted "actively" turning away from something as something more active than cringeing silently! I will occasionally cringe silently, but that's it - I don't think cringeing silently is a big hurt in my life that I need to protect my children from. When the majority of people in the UK stop thinking this is a Christian country, maybe I will cringe more loudly, but according to the last census, a majority still think this is a Christian country.

Gosh Anne,

I can only take your word for it that people of faith have their faith trashed on this site.

Presumably you don't think this is a good thing. I hope not!

If, as a matter of settled and considered principle, someone wishes to withdraw their child from assemblies, it's not nice if other people simply dismiss those deeply held beliefs as unworthy of respect.

We may think withdrawal isn't a great option - but can't we agree it's a good thing that that option exists?

The more I think about this, the more I feel the OP was very polite indeed!

There are two separate arguments here. The worship of a particular religion in a state school really has nothing to do with the OP's original questions. It's a debate unto itself, and a very worthwhile one, but probably not for this thread.

The OP has chosen to send her child to a private faith based school and seems somewhat confused with the cultural differences between US and UK schooling.

I teach at a private Catholic primary. Whilst we accept students of any faith, it is expected that families will support the ethos of a catholic school, and they sign a contract to that effect, agreeing to participate in school activities, including religious education. We've only ever had one problem, and that parent was asked to find more a more appropriate educational environment for her child, and we were legally within our rights to ask her to leave. It's not OK to expect a religious organisation to significantly subsidise your child's private education and to be openly critical of that religion and not allow your child to participate fully in the school. We have probably one quarter of students of other faiths, and we all manage to get along harmoniously, as they respect that signing up to a Catholic school means that you're going to hear about God sometimes.

As for G&T teaching during that time, well it's flat out no. Teachers need to be in the assembly supervising the rest of their classes, not providing one on one tutoring. If that occurred, you would suddenly have so many parents pulling their child out of assemblies and expecting one on one tutoring for their child as well.

And besides everything else, we're talking about a four year old child. Ostracising him from his peers, expecting one of one private tutoring, all sounds pretty scary to me. It's going to be a long hard road ahead for his schooling if this is how the OP has started out.

I think there are 3 arguments because I don't like the way RE is put with collective worship, as if they are the same.

I don't think that collective worship has a place in schools, but it isn't something that bothers me greatly- I will leave others to fight that one.
I can think of other things in education that bother me more.

However I think that RE teaching is essential otherwise you end up with very ignorant people. You can't understand current affairs, history, art, literature, architecture or different cultures without it.
You also end up with rude and insensitive people if they have no respect for the views of others and think they can just ride roughshod over them.