withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

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Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

'Whendidyoulast, you firmly state, "Schools should cater for the beliefs and backgrounds and needs of ALL of their pupils and not target particular events at one particular faith."

I presume you just mean in the state sector? Should a private school be held to this demand as well'

Well, personally, I think they should but I accept that they can't be made to.

Most are astute enough to realize that they need to keep their customers happy and keep their school competitive so it's in their interest to be accommodating.

The OP's headmistress has said she would do this but hasn't yet come up with an ideal solution. Probably it can be resolved with a simple meeting. Absoltuely no need for the bizarre Mumsnet overreaction about the OP being 'mad' and unreasonable given the headmistress has shown willing to accommodate the ds.

penne, that's not what I'm suggesting at all (no celebrations or learning about different religions).

You are wilfully misrepresenting my views in order to discredit them - why?

The schools in question actively promote Christianity and only Christianity. They talk about one God. They sing Christian hymns and participate in Chritian prayers and festivals.

In so doing they are doing nothing more or less than following the law which is that the collective act of worship should be Christian.

There's such total acceptance of the way things are because most people are OK with the way things are on that particular issue. You won't get half the population willing to jump under horses on this one, I'm afraid, whendidyoulast, however much you think it's a similar issue.

When - you seem to be completely missing the point about things being the way they are because that is what most people are happy with. Please stop with the dire analogies. Having the odd prayer in assembly is not the equivalent of a whole section of society being disenfranchised.

Who are you to insist the education system should be changed to suit your wishes? Particularly as it doesn't seem to be the wishes of many parents.

Secular countries mentioned thus far have been the US and France - countries where it is generally worse to have a minority religious viewpoint.

'There is no point in sending your child to a Christian school if you don't want him to join in with prayers.'

Some people don't have a choice about whether to send their child to a Christian school. There may be no non faith schools in the LEA or you may not be able to access the others.

But that's also extremely disingenuous.

It is well known that faith schools typically outperform non faith schools.

So there may be a great deal of 'point' in sending your child to a Christian school.

You do realize that 1 in 3 schools ARE faith schools and this figure is rising.

It's actually quite difficult to avoid faith schools in some areas.

Notably where I live. In fact, we went out of our way to avoid the local faith schools but have still ended up with a school with a very explicitly Christian agenda. I have no other problems with the school (and I don't think the OP does either-.

'most people are OK with the way things are on that particular issue. You won't get half the population willing to jump under horses on this one, I'm afraid, whendidyoulast, however much you think it's a similar issue.'

Well, actually, a huge number of people on this thread have said they're not OK about it but for a whole host of reasons, they put up with it.

What's more (and oddly in my view hence the vegetarian analogy) they are trying to persuade others to put up with it too.

In France and Switzerland the complete separation of church from school and state is taken very, very seriously.

Now I'm not saying it's a jump under horses issue, it just frustrates me that there's this bovine acceptance of THE WAY THINGS ARE and what's worse a pressure on others to conform.

It seems like it's easier to attack the person who is prepared to stand out from the crowd than actually be supportive and challenge the status quo. It's very unsisterly and regressive.

There's a difference between being happy with a system and just not bothered enough to make a fuss about it (which many posters have acknowledged is their pov).

If you go to a school which is a bit more inclusive then I can see why you might not see the problem in other schools. Likewise if you're a Christian or have Christian sympathies.

It's also well known that faith schools are one of the ways in which huge inequalities in the educations system are created and preserved.

Since as many people are predicted to attend a Mosque as a church by 2020, it does seem like an absurd throwback that EVERY state school is still required to have Christian worship as well as absurdly alienating.

As the number of faith schools esp academies and free schools is rising (and faith schools have been well documented to play an important part in creating or exacerbating social conflict as in N. Ireland and in riots in northern towns like Oldham) we have a real potential problem on our hands. But you can't say there' a problem with Buddhist and Islamic schools opening if it's OK for state schools to promote an exclusively Chrisitan ideology.

'Who are you to insist the education system should be changed to suit your wishes?'

I find your tone aggressive and uncalled for.

What I am calling for is for schools to be geniunely inclusive of children from ALL backgrounds and religions.

You'd have thought that would be one of the main points on the Mumsnet manifesto.

"School is not for indoctrination"

Really? Are they not indoctrinating children with a western centric history, good time keeping, docility, willingness to suppress ones individual goals and the ability to cope with endless hours of abject boredom. Worrying about the odd prayer in assembly seems pretty insignificant to me in the scheme of things. I'm sure most children day dream and fidget through it and don't take the least notice anyway.

"What I am calling for is for schools to be geniunely inclusive of children from ALL backgrounds"

Absolutely fair enough

The bovine acceptance of the status quo stuff though ...is it not just the case that the particular issue is just something that most people are not that bothered about and don't see as particularly malevolent. In the scheme of the vicious dismantling of the NHS, the selling of frigging everything, escalating child poverty, glaring inequalities in the access to decent education, provision and progression for kids with SEN, (the horrors of poor mothers being subjected to people wanting to give them sudocrem samples in the post-natal ward ) etc all things worth campaigning on....tbh accepting a bit of lite religion in school in pursuance of a quiet life seems totally reasonable to me.

I agree with you, mostly, OP, for what it's worth, but as you have now amply discovered, the bizarre persistence of religion in the UK education system is the elephant in the room and may not be questioned! You might enjoy this book, as you take an interest in history: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erewhon

I agree with MerylStrop - in the big scheme of things I don't give a toss if someone mentions Christmas in assembly. There are far more important things to consider - so on my list of vital things to protest about, it comes right at the VERY BOTTOM.

I am atheist but my children attend cof schools, not private. I don't think it a a bog deal, I will allow my kids to make up their own minds. I bit of collective worship is not going to "corrupt" their minds. If you are that bothered you should find a new school, and gifted and talented, does that matter I the long run? I think you should find something else to stress about.

'Worrying about the odd prayer in assembly seems pretty insignificant to me '

And that is exactly what I mean by a lack of respect for others' strongly held opinions. What is 'pretty insignificant' to YOU may be deeply offensive to somebody else. A meat eater would not say to a vegetarian, 'Oh, go on, love a little bit won't hurt you' so why is it OK to trample all over somebody else's faith or lack of it??

And I have repeatedly said that 'the odd prayer' might be YOUR experience but it is not everybody's.

My children find the Easter assembly where they are encouraged to look at the wounds left by the nails in Christ's hands deeply worrying as it happens.

Likewise I find the idea of Eve as temptress and that we all need to repent for our sins also deeply troubling.

As do I find the idea that the children at one of dp's schools need to confess and are told that abortion and contraception and masturbation are sinful deeply worrying.

If you get a happy, clappy watered down version or no overt Christianity at all at your schools fair enough but do not project your own experiences and beliefs on to others.

It's not on.

FGS mini can you honestly not see the difference between a school encouraging good time keeping and presenting the idea that there is one true God and that there was once a virgin birth?

How very depressing.

'is it not just the case that the particular issue is just something that most people are not that bothered about and don't see as particularly malevolent'

SOME people, yes. Many people possibly.

But are you using that to dismiss the very real concerns and beliefs of those who are that bothered?

'tbh accepting a bit of lite religion in school in pursuance of a quiet life seems totally reasonable to me'

Can you not see that you and others on this thread are colluding in it being an 'unquiet life' to withdraw children or to complain?

That's the reason why my children don't withdraw from stuff they find on a scale from absurd to offensive not because of the school but because of the amount of flak they and I would have to put up with from their peers.

It's verging on the sinister, this derision of non-conformists and other people's strongly held beliefs.

Maybe a consequence of the great Christian tolerance and respect for others' beliefs you've all been taught in your own schools?

So what about the groups of people who are offended with evolutionary theory being presented as fact in science class. Are you fighting for their right to equal representation in the school setting too? Should creationism be taught in science so that those people are not deeply offended and excluded?

whendidyoulast
its Odd, I thought the OP was out of order in her views, but she had the excuse of being a new arrival.
Your utter paranoia and obsessions about RE in schools
(looking at the marks of Jesus' hands at Easter - yeah right, maybe in a Catholic school, not in a Controlled CofE)
tell me that when your kids turn into teenagers they will take great pleasure in winding you up by becoming happy clappies.
Good luck.

'(looking at the marks of Jesus' hands at Easter - yeah right, maybe in a Catholic school, not in a Controlled CofE)'

OK, so not only are you rude and derisive to people who don't agree with you, you also accuse them of lying.

That's it. I'm off.

Out of interest,
do you protect your kids from the gory bits of the Iliad and the Odessy and the Norse Sagas and the Egyptian creation stories
or is it just the Christian version of the fairy story you have a problem with

If schools were indoctorating pupils the churches would be full to overflowing!!
Either they are not indoctrinating or they are failing badly!

I know that if I was whendidyoulast's DC I would find religion very exciting! Forbidden fruits and all that!

When did you last!

Where exactly have I derided your beliefs?

I've stated several times downthread that my opinion is that collective worship has no place in schools.

Really irritated by your slactivism though.

why is it OK to trample all over somebody else's faith or lack of it??

So it is not ok for the school to suppress a child's creative spirit and their desire to question what they encounter but it is perfectly permissible for the parent to do this.

When you talk about "my faith, my belief" it makes clear that you think that your children and what they think is an extension of you and your beliefs. Are some people aware that children are not an extension to their own ego but quite separate human beings. Even the use of language "somebody else" in place of "the child's" make clear that really what some atheists object to isn't that their children might encounter religion but that they can not control the encounter and the outcome.