withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

[outofthebox]

Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

I don't count taking offence as being harmed in any way and all I am getting from whendidyoulast's posts is a lot of anger and feelings of being offended. What is actually HARMFUL about prayers in assembly which you don't actually have to join in with? As exoticfruits has pointed out, it doesn't exactly result in mass conversions to Christianity.

Whendidyou - for you to be positing France and Switzerland as something to aspire in terms of community cohesion shows your complete ignorance.

France - where the National Front is the third largest political party.

Switzerland - where a major political party produces posters like this: www.google.co.uk/search?q=udc+racist+posters&client=tablet-android-kobo&espv=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sboxchip=Images&sa=X&ei=8m3sUZ6qLuer0QWW_oGADw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAA&biw=601&bih=906

As a Muslim, I have no problem with the state religion in the UK, but I fear things would be very, very different if anti-theists held sway.

whendidyoulast's children appear to go to a very extreme school, and her dp teaches at a Catholic school. I know that there are some areas of the country where there isn't much choice but to attend a church school, and that's clearly not acceptable but really I would be moving rather than put up with either.

I was brought up a Catholic, went to Catholic schools plus catechism and don't remember ever being told to look at Jesus' wounds in some sort of gory way, I've only really had that sort of conversation with my mother in an Art History setting. I would never send my child to a school that I thought had any extreme religious elements bouncing around in it, even if it was the most 'outstanding' in the area (and given the selection processes involved I have my doubts about how good they are in any case).

Seems to me that the following is true and there are 4 ways of looking at Christianity:

if Christianity is a load of rubbish and you believe it - more fool you
If Christianity is a load of rubbish and you DON'T believe it - well done you

However, if Christianity is true and you believe it - well done you
if Christianity is true and you DON'T believe it - more fool you.

Nobody can be 'forced' to worship a God they don't believe in...they may sit through services or religious activities, but what they think and feel within is entirely private and entirely controlled by the individual. Why shouldn't children be given the opportunity to learn about it and...shock, horror, make an informed decision.

The vehemence against Christianity (even the very watered down type of 'broadly Christian' things required by law [what does that even mean anyway? just another way of saying we should teach children to be nice and respect each other...after all, a lot of people in this country consider that being Christian means being 'moral' in some way]) by some people on this thread well one in particular is quite astonishing!

If schools were required to teach that all non-Christians should be persecuted, ridiculed and forcibly converted then there might be cause for complaint.

So often Christians are accused of bigotry and intolerance, but it seems that this isn't an exclusive club for 'believers'.

Of course children should be given the opportunity to learn about Christianity, and all the other major religions too.

They shouldn't be expected to participate in Christian worship at school though, especially if they, er, aren't Christian.

I suspect that a lot of the reason that many people are so meh about Christian worship being part of the school day is that they haven't actually given the subject a lot of thought (or are Christians themselves and want to encourage it in others). If you do think about it, it's a bit absurd.

If schools were indoctorating pupils the churches would be full to overflowing!!
Either they are not indoctrinating or they are failing badly!

Collective worship used to annoy me as a Christian kid because it was so bad!

I don't like it now because it normalises the notion of there being a creator god. If they could just do their assemblies with ethical content but drop the prayer and 'Who put the colours in the rainbow' or whatever that's always tacked on the end, that would be properly inclusive. (Like most secondary schools do, in fact). An occasional faith-based assembly for special occasions for various different faiths would be ok in my book - along with eg one on World Humanism day. Secularism is not anti-religious - it is simply 'no privilege, no discrimination'.

a lot of people in this country consider that being Christian means being 'moral' in some way

that's precisely one of the other objections. Being moral has nothing to do with being Christian. Religion is presented to kids as a 'good thing' - but you can be good without any god, and there are more than enough examples of christians and muslims (and other religions) being extremely immoral.

Lizzy - not that old chestnut "if people don't mind, it's because they haven't thought about it" What sheeple those non-atheists are, not like you ardent secularists.

It greatly amuses me that many of the ardent atheists/anti-theist are just as smug and superior as any stereotypical religious person.

Grimma - secularism is non-prejudical? In theory possible (I'm being kind, I think NSS are a miserable bunch of whingers, who would soon start making life difficult for a variety of people if they had any power), but practice shows us something different, hence my eye roll whenever some bright spark holds up France (where the National Front are the third largest political party) as some beacon of paradise.

GoshAnneGorilla - you only have to look at many of the comments on this thread along the lines of 'it's just the way things are in England, it's only Christianity-lite anyway, get used to it'. That to me doesn't smack of any great thought process, or consideration that some non-Christians might find it odd, uncomfortable, or anachronistic.

As if the opposing arguments have provided such a great standard if debate.

FWIW, I'm non-Christian and I would much rather UK attitude towards religion then anything proposed on here as an alternative.

Odd, uncomfortable, anachronistic - there are plenty of things I find odd, uncomfortable and anachronistic. I don't happen to think finding things odd, uncomfortable or anachronistic means they must be forcibly changed, because I still don't find any of those terms you use expressions which mean "harmful." Wishy washy Christian worship in schools is a bit like the Royal Family and the Church of England - they are weird, uncomfortable and anachronistic, but some of the few things which mark this country out as different from any other, these days. Frankly, I like to feel I live in a country that is a little bit different from elsewhere - it increases, rather than diminishes, my sense of belonging, even if I do think half of what makes me feel English is frankly a little bit odd.

Grimma - secularism is non-prejudical?

Its supposed to be, and that's the secularism I support. Whereas currently collective worship (and lets not even get into school admissions) clearly does involve privilege/discrimination. Its not just non-theists and anti-theists who are affected, its other religious groups. The children most likely to be withdrawn from collective worship aren't the children of atheists, its the children of Jehovah's Witnesses and other religious groups).

What a bunfight.

OP, I'm a Jewish atheist.

My children are well aware that they are Jewish and go to Cheder at synagogue to learn about being Jewish, as well as us living a Jewish lifestyle (well, vaguely!) at home.

They attend a CofE school, where they learn about Jesus. They go to assemblies, sing hymns and partake in nativity plays just like the Sikh and Muslim children, and as such they are not made to feel excluded or weird or at risk of teasing. They are aware these religious practices do not apply to them, but since that is the ethos of the school I chose to send them to, we look as it as multi-cultural tolerance.

Religion here in the UK is about culture far more than belief, and sticking your fingers in your ears and going la la la other religions don't exist is a crazy approach. How on earth is learning about what others believe and ow they live harmful? You sound very intolerant, totally unable to see yourself as anything but right and your poor innocent 4yo son will suffer for it.

Martyr yourself for your religion if you choose, but to inflict it on your son is cruel.

GoshAnne - actually I would agree that a liberal and laid back attitude to your own and others' religion (or lack of) is a thoroughly good thing.

But I don't agree that being exposed to worship at school is a causative factor in this liberalism - it's more to do with the culture and demographics of the region, and that varies a lot even within the UK and Ireland.

Sorry that was to rabbitstew as well.

I should add, if you want to campaign against compulsory religious participation in schools, that's a campaign many people (myself included) would get behind. But I think it's pointless to force your child to get involved by singling them out and excluding them when they're too young to understand why, when at the end of the day, they're your beliefs, not his.

What a bunfight.

yeah, no one could have predicted that from the title . While I hope that some day not too far off 'collective worship' will be updated along the lines I suggested, at the moment in most schools its best to treat it as you say - a cultural thing that the child can participate in or quietly observe as they wish. I feel sorry for kids whose parents feel the need to withdraw them.

Good points, Boozy.

Whendidyoulast, you say that I am "wilfully misrepresenting my views in order to discredit them - why?"

I merely quoted you and asked for clarification - how is that willfully misrepresenting your views to discredit them?

You stated your opinion that "Schools should cater for the beliefs and backgrounds and needs of ALL of their pupils and not target particular events at one particular faith."

I broke your statement into 2 parts ... 1) questioning whether your statement applied to private schools as well. To which you have since responded, "Well, personally, I think they should but I accept that they can't be made to." Thanks for clarifying. Agree to disagree. 2) Later in my post I addressed the second part of your original quote "and not target particular events at one particular faith." And I wrote fair enough, but then that should be applied across the board and how sad that would really be in the greater scheme of understanding and knowledge of other religions.

In no way did I willfully misrepresent your views to discredit them ... I asked for clarification, agreed with you on several points, conceded even. And ended with my opinion. If you are firm in your opinion and views, I can't discredit them (because they are your opinions and views). Isn't that what discussion is about ... the back and forth nature ... learning other viewpoints ... maybe even refining our own viewpoints?

I see that you wrote that you're off. Fine. It's been a lengthy post. And I've learned a lot.

Whoops, lots of additional posts I didn't read prior to my reply/post above.

Definitely an informative thread ...

I get terribly annoyed when people come up with 'sheeple'. It crops up all the time 'happy with collective worship'- haven't thought about it. 'Changed your surname on marriage' - haven't thought about it. 'Have your child vaccinated' - haven't thought about it.Or even worse you are totally ignorant of the alternatives.
When will it get through to these people! We are not ignorant- we have given it deep thought- we have just come up with a different conclusion - just as valid.

exotic - I said "I suspect that a lot of the reason that many people are so meh about Christian worship being part of the school day is that they haven't actually given the subject a lot of thought (or are Christians themselves and want to encourage it in others)."

I stand by the fact that many (not all) people won't have given it a second thought. And that some of those that are in favour will simply see the Christian message as a good thing.

Lizzyday - You can stand by your opinion, but you do not have the evidence to state it as a fact. Fact and opinion are not interchangeable terms.

GoshAnne - yes of course (as far as I know) it's not a proven fact.

I'm going by experience of people I know and interpretations of what people say on threads like these. Going by the consensus of this thread, people don't really take religion that seriously. Which IS odd, IMO.

It's like someone saying they don't take politics that seriously and people should just accept the status quo.