withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

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Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

exotic - many. I've been a teacher and consultant for 15 years, I am the daughter of teachers and the wife of a teacher (some of the assemblies in some of the schools dp has worked in have been absolute gems!). I have two secondary school aged children.

Not sure how it helps. Collective Christian worship is the law so it's weird you find it surprising that this goes on.

If you haven't experienced the sort of assemblies I have count yourself lucky or maybe, if you don't share my views, you just let it wash over you.

Many do. The Muslim kids I teach just keep their mouths and ears shut.

It's quite typical for the staff to have to pray in morning briefing in some CofE schools. My dp worked in a school where a vicar came in to bless a new building. That was a state and non-faith school!!!

I have been in many schools with Muslims, Hindus etc- ( some if them are church schools) they love being asked their views and they love telling everyone about their religion- often in assembly.

I have never ever had to pray in a morning briefing in a C of E school- I can't see how it would work as not all the staff are Christian.

You would expect the vicar to bless a new building for a church school- why not?

exotic, that is your experience.

Are you implying I'm making this up?

Honestly, if you don't know that many schools, faith and non-faith, still have very Christian, very traditional assemblies (really like a sermon), you need to get out more.

If you'll read my post, the vicar blessed a state and community school, not a faith school.

That's one of the more surpising things I've ever found out about!

And a really good example of how atheist children or children with religions other than Christianity might be made to feel excluded.

'I have never ever had to pray in a morning briefing in a C of E school'

I'm just not sure what your point is? Are you suggesting that I'm inventing this?

Obviously I can't name schools but again, this is not uncommon.

Teachers who aren't Christian can keep their mouths shut but in a faith school teachers would be encouraged to participate heartily.

I expect the Head invited the vicar- the education act is open to interpretation of the Head.
I fail to see how I could get out more! I have done supply teaching for longer than most- it suited my lifestyle.
It might happen that you get a prayer at a morning briefing- but highly odd- having taught in many church schools I can't see it going down well!

I think that we will have to agree to differ because neither of us are going to start listing schools. I just think it scaremongering.

The moral of the story is question the Head closely on collective worship in the school before you send them. Unfortunately people will persist in thinking there are secular state schools-it should be clearly signed to them that they are not secular- and some community schools can be more religious than faith schools.

'I just think it scaremongering.'

Er, no.

I am explaining what my views are about the collective act of worship in this country.

As I say, it IS odd that you should find it surprising that many schools do what the law requires them to do.

'I expect the Head invited the vicar-'

Duh! Of course, that's what happened.

'The moral of the story is question the Head closely on collective worship in the school before you send them. '

Well, that might be the lesson you take away.

Personally, I think that the message should be that more should be done to ensure that our schools reflect the diversity of our children and are genuinely inclusive. That cannot be the case as long as there is a legal requirement for a daily act of Christian worship.

This is interesting from the Humanist Society humanism.org.uk/education/parents/collective-worship-and-school-assemblies-your-rights/

The problem with questioning the Head closely is also that the Head is likely to tell you what you want to hear. The Head the OP spoke to said she would deal with what to do with the ds who was withdrawn but didn't deal with it adequately. I'm sure the Head of my dp's school wouldn't even mention religion if she knew she was dealing with atheist parents.

But as I've said the law puts Heads in an impossible position - either they follow the law and risk alienating pupils and parents or they don't in which case they are breaking the law.

Too many people on this thread are suggesting that the problem is with individuals and they should just put up with it.

But it's pretty obvious that this is not an ideal situation.

I am not a christian but I would never take my children out of assembly or RE. I've worked in a lot of schools and only seen this happen for a Jehovah's witness family. It did single them out horribly. I would never want to make assumptions about what my DCs will end up believing. That's their business not mine and they can't make informed choices about religion if they aren't exposed to any.

whendidyoulast - can I recommend Tim Minchin's song to you:

You are coming across very oddly on this thread. I am sorry that the assemblies you have attended in state schools have stressed so many Christian "facts" that you find offensive. I think you have been unfortunate in the assemblies you have experienced. This has not been my experience, nor that of my children.

P.S. My name is Verlaine and I am an atheist.

I share Tim Minchin's views (some of them ;) ).

Damn

I certainly find saluting the flag more scary than nativity plays

OP - did you mean a cognita school? My younger children attend a Christian cognita school. One has just left. I'm atheist, my dad is atheist, my mum agnostic. I had a short religious phase in my early teens. I think my children need to make up their own minds really. I also think ds2 would make a great vicar At their school they have certainly learned a lot about both Christianity & other religions.

There are quite a few children of other religions who attend the school (esp Muslim). And lots with atheist parents - quite a few who like me, welcome the teaching of Christianity & other religions. I find religion fascinating tbh. I don't know of anyone who pulls their children out of assemblies. It would be hard to at certain times because eg for nativities or class assemblies a lot of class time is given to preparation. Even things like the annual prize giving take place in a church and end with a prayer. I don't think g&t lessons could be conducted during assembly time as the teachers all attend the assembly.

It's beyond rubbish that British schools are not secular. The reality for us is that ALL local schools are CofE. We went to appeal because the only school able to offer our son a place in a ten mile radius had such a strong religious ethos that we were deeply uncomfortable with it. Guess what, the panel at appeal were three overtly Christian church goers, and they had little sympathy with our case. There were other reasons too why the school was a disaster for our son, and we ended up moving him to an independent school. Interestingly, the independent also has a strong Christian ethos. There are aspects I am not over the moon about, but as people on this thread have suggested, I also feel that we have made a positive choice about this school, and in the interests of all the other many benefits our children get from it, we respect the personal choice of the head in this matter.

I remain insensed however, that we live in a country where a large proportion of parents have no choice whatsoever. Whendidyoulast speaks sense in my opinion. There is the world of difference between religious education (I'm all for this!) and enforced participation in collective worship.

Our local school has the school rules displayed on a huge poster in the main hall. It's headed... "Our Rules, God's Rules".

It's the subtle conflation of religion with core aspects of the school community that I struggle with, as opposed to the more obvious things like assembly.

whendidyoulast, I am not sure why I am bothering to post since you have such set views. But I couldn't let your assertions about assembles pass. I have attended assemblies in 5 different primary schools in the uk in the last 15 years and not once have I seen an assembly as you describe. Never have the children been told something religious is fact. But these have all been state community schools. I can't speak for what a private Christian school would do but then I've quite deliberately not chosen to attend one, work in one or send my DC to one. My SIL, whose son attends a Jesuit private school, says the assemblies are very religious but that is what she has chosen. And yes, I am agnostic so an overly religious assembly would bother me...but they simply do not happen in state community primary schools in England.

I think it's because so many people share your view that there is the world of difference between religious education and enforced participation (except of course it isn't enforced) in collective worship that assemblies tend to conveniently bypass/are a bit wishy washy over the worship bit - even if they're not supposed to.

My last post was to SingySongy.

My son has definitely been presented religious opinion as fact, at assembly (and in class) at state CofE school. The state CofE school I described above that was our one and only choice.

And at age 4, when we talked about our own opinions at home...
"But teachers don't lie Mummy".

I don't see why we should accept this as the status quo.

Verlaine I would agree with you if it had felt wishy washy, but it didn't.

And actually, I don't see why we should teach our children that it's ok to accept that a wishy washy participation in something that you (possibly) believe strongly against, is an acceptable position in life.

Alien, the plural of anecdote is not data.

Honestly, how can you be surprised that given it is the law that schools provide a daily act of collective worship that so many schools do just that?

I would also say that assemblies at primary can be touchy feely affairs where children are encouraged to participate, with secondaries, less so.

You don't usually see Q & A type discussions in traditional secondary school assemblies where you might have 400 kids sitting in rows in a hall.

Yes, SingySongy, heard and seen lots of fairly insidious use of God in the vein that you indicate.

Obviously it's particularly worrying when kids are told that abortion and contraception are wrong.