withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

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Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

Ooooh I've just remembered. Ds1 initially attended a m/s c of e school. He was too autistic to attend assembly so used to not attend. One family of a different religion (I'm afraid I can't remember which religion they practiced it was years ago) used to withdraw their children from assemblies. They just waited really, they weren't given work. I used to see then when I dropped ds1 late (which I was sometimes asked to do). I can't remember whether they did nativities. Ds1 was a present in that nativity though so I don't think they were particularly religious.

Incidentally ds1 is at a state special school (non-faith) now & there are still prayers said etc

Whendidyoulast, you are happy to generalise about assemblies based on your experiences and expect others to accept that they are representative, but when Exoticfruits said this was not her experience you do not accept that her experience may be true for many schools. You keep stressing that it is the law, as if this means it must be happening the way you say, when several posters have said it is not the way assemblies are in the schools they know.

Neither the school I work in or any of the schools my children have attended have daily assemblies, at no time is there any quoting the bible as fact or even any mention of Christianity, except in the context of telling the story of the nativity or Easter. We also have assemblies when festivals or beliefs of other religions are explained.

What is promoted in my school are values such as kindness, respect and tolerance- so they are broadly Christian in that those values reflect Christian values but no reference is made to any religion when discussing them except in regard to respecting other people's beliefs etc.

As for the OP I agree she should not have chosen a school that declares itself a Christian school if she does not want her child exposed to Christian beliefs. I believe you can be Jewish or Humanist or Atheist but not all three, presumably you mean you remain culturally Jewish just without the religion?

"But teachers don't lie Mummy".
Answer: "No, of course they don't, but like everyone they can sometimes be wrong".

And to Whendidyoulast: Of course I didn't mean to imply I'd be happy with a school teaching fascism! I intended to use it as an example a creed as generally hated as much as you obviously hate religion.

But my DD does not believe strongly against religion. I do! I'm quite happy for her to participate (aged 6) a d make her own mind up. She's totally comfortable with the idea that mummy doesn't believe in god but lots of people (including her, at the moment!) do. And she is also comfortable that I attend church when invited for christenings and weddings etc and will sit quietly when others pray but will not pray myself. Surely this is how we teach tolerance for different views and the importance of being true to our own beliefs (or non-beliefs)?

Badger, we of course did have that discussion. I just don't see why we should have to have. At the age of 4 he really was too young to understand. He has aspergers too, which meant his thinking was quite rigid.
I'm sure that many other parents find thdmselves in a similar situation.

I realise that this school is more extreme than many that have been described. It's good to hear that lots of people have a more positive experience. I do think that this shouldn't have to depend on schools having a generously flexible interpretation of the law of the land however.

I really think that 'ordinary' community schools should not be forced to have collective worship and should be broadly secular, and that there should be far fewer schools with a religious inclination (more in line with the 10% of relatively frequent church goers than the 25% of CoE primaries).

I didn't like my dd coming home and telling me that some Christian thing was true because 'Father Christopher said so and he has a bigger house than us' (weird 6 year old logic) although the same stuff passed ds right by (he enjoys being contrary though). Sure she is an agnostic now (like the majority of teenagers apparently) but that doesn't mean it didn't seriously rankle at the time.

However if you actively choose a faith school then I do think that is very very different and you cannot complain when it does what it says on the tin and teaches that the faith is true and important.

Likewise you can't complain that a Catholic school teaches catholic values, even if you dislike the values unless your child had no choice but to attend.

According to a survey commissioned by the BBC in 2011 64% of secondary school parents reported that their children did not attend daily worship at school, and Ofsted has consistently reported poor compliance, with no enforcement at any level. So I think that schools where assemblies are used to heavily promote Christianity like those whendidyoulast describes are unusual. Maybe the OP has managed somehow to select such a school for her ds, in which case the obvious option is simply to change schools.

I am glad that other people can recognise the assemblies that I have attended.
'Teachers don't lie mummy' is a very interesting point to discuss with children and the difference between fact and opinion.

I think that the problem for some people is the fact that UK is a Christian country- they can forget this in daily life,
but it is brought home forcibly to them when the child starts school. I think it ought to be clearly stated on the GovDirect site, I haven't looked lately, but I was shocked last time I looked to find that there was all the information about starting school and no mention of collective worship. We also hear so much about faith schools that I can quite see why people imagine the rest are secular, when there is very little difference.

If the young child has never heard of God at home it is a very exciting concept- it is like all things- once they get used to it it is no longer exciting. If you asked most of them what assembly had been about they wouldn't be able to say. I could easily assume that my DS's school didn't have one, if I didn't know better, they never mentioned it.
If the parent makes a huge deal out of it I expect it remains exciting- things that you are excluded from generally are!

I would agree nooka. I don't think collective worship has a place in schools. You have to understand the 1860 education act to realise why schools are faith or not. Unfortunately the state can't afford to buy the land that belongs to the church.

If you actively chose a Christian private school you have no cause for complaint!

Exotic fruits, I knew full well that there is no such thing as a secular education in the uk. It doesn't mean that I think this is right though, and no amount of info on a government website would change my mind about that I'm afraid.

I know you do,but there are hundreds of parents who have no idea- threads crop up regularly on here when they find out. It ought to be upfront. People don't read up on the history of education or consult the 1998 education act before they enrol their child!

You have a right to withdraw your child from RE & worship & many schools (ours included) accommodate this sort of request on a daily basis. In reality the most you can expect is that your child is taken to a separate room & adequately supervised.
School buildings are not generally soundproof so your ds is likely to hear some of what is going on, perhaps the school can take him to a classroom a little further away.
However at such a young age he is likely to feel sad as all he will understand is that he is being separated from his friends. I am sure the school will handle this as sensitively as they can & try to not make it a negative experience but unless there are other children who are also withdrawing from worship he is going to be on his own.
I am afraid you are going to have to accept this as a side effect of your request for him not to be included.

Ok, good point. I know I'm being a bit provocative, but I feel so strongly about this, as I know others do to a greater or lesser extent. I very much hope that one daythings will change. The church really does have a monopoly on education in some areas. Perpetuated, for example, where the local vicor may be the head of governors, and responsible for appointing head teachers etc. I know of one governing body that starts each meeting with prayer, and where the religious tone is so great that it has put potential volunteers from standing as governors. If the percentage of CofE schools came anywhere close to reflecting church attendance this would be more acceptable in my view. And if the national statistic is indeed 25%, then even this is small comfort if you live in an area like ours where 100% of schools are CofE.

whendidyoulast
DH goes into upwards of 100 schools per year and attends assembly in significant numbers of them
your experience is unusual.

"Aided Schools" might be more god than "controlled" and community are even less so
but you are falling into the Randi / Dawkins mistake of protesting too much

Only read half way through because frankly....

OP if you are an atheist then the British way will suit you very well. American society is extremely religious compared to ours. We have no separation of church and state because nobody's that bothered. A British PM cannot even get away with admitting a sincere faith (Alastair Campbell made sure Tony Blair's faith was largely kept under wraps and there was a national cringing at his praying with George w.). This is probably one of the most secular societies on earth, despite the presence of the church in the establishment. If you haven't noticed that yet, you start engaging with the country you live in. There are other ways besides the American way you know.

As for sending your child to a faith school and then telling others off for hypocrisy....

I haven't read the thread except for the OP. I am also an Atheist of Jewish-American heritage and DH is a Brit Atheist who was raised Cathloic. I have brought up all my DC in the UK attending state schools. Two have been identified as G&T for whatever that is worth. I haven't pulled them out of collective worship or nativity plays or anything and they are all strong atheists with a much better knowledge of comparative religion than what I believe an American public education affords. Personally, there seems to me a much more sane outlook on religion by most people here.

very very few rules apply to private schools no corporal punishment is one, if they are also a registered charity there must be some public benefit as determined by charity commission insisting on religious observance would not be an obstacle

most private schools are accommodating to other beliefs but they do not have to be

the head of a private christian school does not have to accommodate OP

the law regarding broadly Christian acts of worship does not apply to private schools

they do not have to provide RE. they can make it compulsory, they can make it a condition that the uniform is adhered to to the letter, they can insist girls wear skirts not trousers, they do not have to follow national curriculum, or provide sex education; they can choose which exams are available to pupils, they can make school dinners and saying grace before them compulsory, they can insist you play rugby etc etc etc

most UK citizens would be more horrified about pledging allegiance to the Queen and Union Flag/ St Georges Cross or whatever; that is completely alien to UK schools; unless St Georges day I can't think of may churches that would ever consider flying national flag never mind having it next to pulpit, even born again evangelical christians in UK are very different to USA ones, I have never met a UK christian that would think having a gun was mandated by the bible 9 out of 10 USA chrisitians think this, while UK christians would understand the anti-abortion/ pornography lobby they would be seriously puzzled why same group was anti health insurance and welfare and pro guns and the flag
most UK evangelicals see silver ring pledge of virginity as a bit weird not because they think sex before marriage is good but they think 8,9 10 years olds pledging in public not to do something is odd

like many have said before America and UK are two countries divided by common language

OP - This is obviously something you feel particularly strongly about, so whilst it is easy for (some of us) to not really 'get' what the big issue is - it is a big part of your life - however, as others pointed out, religion isn't a big deal in the UK - you are likely to get into a debate about religious intolerance, however, you will probably walk away from it not knowing what religion the people were you were debating with - it's just something that is a non-issue this side of the pond. By taking your standpoint however, you are making it an issue.
I would worry mostly about the hypocritical message you are giving to your son. By sending such a severe message and forcing him to be different and 'excluded' I think you are more likely to turn him against your views. It won't happen for another 6 or 7 years but you'd be very lucky if it didn't happen. I think you are more likely to 'get him on side' if you showed tolerance and acceptance to the culture you have immersed yourself in, but talked to him gently about what you believe at home. If he suffers as a consequence of YOUR beliefs, he is less likely to think they are the way to go.
About the prayer aspect - I teach my children that prayer is for reflection. It's a quiet time to 'think'. Think about a friend you are worried about and what you can do to help them, think about someone that did something to help you and how it made you feel, what can you do to return that? Just, reflection. He doesn't need to say the Lord's Prayer or amen if he doesn't want to - and if he does - so what? It doesn't impact your belief system, he is certainly not going to get 'brainwashed' by the UK RE/assembly structure, but, he will grow up to be a young man that has the opportunity to make informed choices. The beauty of this country is that we are not a dictatorship, we are free to make choices - and that's the way most of us bring our children up, we, for the most part, don't push our views and religion on to our children, because its their choice. I didn't baptise my children for this reason, despite being a Christian, because they will make their own choice when they are ready.
As for the private school issue - to be honest - if you tried this on at our school you would be shown the door pretty quickly, you would be considered a PITA parent. You just cannot dictate to an independent school. You read the prospectus, you looked round the school and you signed the contract - like it and join in or go somewhere else. That is the independent ethos - just because you are paying it doesn't give you the right to dictate a special regime just for your child. By the sounds of it the school are already being HUGELY accommodating. I would be grateful for it and move on. Don't keep pushing, they will only take so much.
Whilst I admire your tenacity and dedication to both your beliefs and your DS, from an outsider looking in, I would advise you take a step back, take a look around and relax a little - there will be much bigger issues that you will need to deal with further on down the line with the school and if you blot your copy book so early you could potentially make these harder to get through.
On a personal note, I went to a Catholic school, went to chapel twice a day, did all the Hail Mary 's etc .... meant nothing to me, I was a Christian. As far as my memory serves me, the conversation never came up as to why I shouldn't do it - my parents sent me there because it was a good school - the religious aspect was irrelevant - I could have been praying to Allah and it would have made no difference, it was just another part of the school day - like playtime and having lunch

Sorry - that was a bit epic!!

My ds came home from his assembly singing 'Reach' by SClub7. Now that was offensive.

OP and When say the head has not dealt with the Op's DS being withdrawn from Christian assemblies "adequately" because he can still hear the assembly and is playing (rather than being given extra and 1:1 G&T lessons as the OP would ideally like).

Can I ask what you feel the OP's DS and other children withdrawn from assemblies should be doing? Especially as assemblies do not necessarily go on for long, especially if the DC's are being withdrawn from just the religious bit / prayers?

Not being contentious, just interested.

I suspect that they are in a room right next to assembly because it is generally the time that they have whole school announcements, rewards etc and they would need to be in at that point- the whole school doesn't want to wait while someone goes down to the other end of the school to get him- they merely want to open a door.
They would miss a lot if they are withdrawn as very often it is not religious- as in 'good work' assemblies - when a class shows some of their work.

'you are happy to generalise about assemblies based on your experiences and expect others to accept that they are representative'

Erm, no I haven't.

I have said repeatedly that MANY schools have traditional assemblies with an explicitly Christian message.

I have quite deliberately not assumed that my own experience or views are in any way representative.

I have said many times that if your school doesn't follow the law or you have no problem with explicitly Christian assemblies or teachings that's great.

But I have asked you to respect my views and the views of other parents like me instead of dismissing them or disblieving them.

If it is the case that many or the majority of schools do not have a daily act of Christian worship then that is more evidence that the legal requirment is irrelevant in today's society which

would seem to support the argument that parents shouldn't be expected to simply put up with it where it happens.

It is a very pertinent point that since faith schools tend to outperform non faith schools in the state sector there is an additional pressure for parents to put up and shut up and in fact its one way in which they can be covertly selective.

So, it is completely disingenuous to say, well find another school then.

But it is not the case that it is only faith schools that do this stuff.