withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

[outofthebox]

Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

pennefab You were magnificent.

If MNHQ charged $$$$$$$$ for registration it would have been worth it purely for your terrifyingly incisive post.

Do you have a fan club I can join?

And I'm still struggling to understand why OP is posting this now (July), when her DC has been in school there since last Dec (she mentioned withdrawing him during Christmas song practice).

Surely if so concerned, OP would have investigated alternative education opportunities then and/or re/assembly requirements at the school she chose for her DC?

I'm trying to understand what she feels her "statutory rights" are at a private school she chose. Wasn't there a contract of some sort that they read and signed before they handed over their money? A bit of caveat emptor and all that.

Even in the US private school environment you investigate the school, come to some agreement with school beforehand so that you're not in reactive mode.

Maybe OP left the US/NY before she started to look into education for her DC. Maybe she had absolutely no idea what private school in US/NY would entail. But that doesn't jive with OP self-reported description of being pushy.

Oh well. Will admit that I just don't get OPs lack of understanding that resulted in her current dilemma this late in the year.

Pennefab, if he's only 3.5 now, presumably he's been in the preschool/nursery section rather than school proper, and I guess they don't make the tiny ones go to assembly, so it will only become an issue in reception - but that shouldn't be until September 2014, unless he is so G&T he is starting a year early? Who knows.

But I agree you'd think she'd have checked out just how much religion was going to be involved at a private church school before signing up for it.

I understand the bit about Jewish as a culture, fine.
The irony is that some Jews do participate in Christmas, they don't see a contradiction.
Atheist & Humanist is contradictory, too.
Because Humanism is about what you do believe, not what you don't.
Atheism is weird anyway. Like Brian Cox said, who likes to be defined by what they don't believe in? No one goes around describing themselves as an a-flat-earther, or an anti-anti-gravityist.

I have finally understood what has happened. This is a relief to me because I think people would say I have been behaving strangely for the past two days. Shaking my head in sorrow, muttering under my breath, occasionally raising an index finger to begin an impromptu dissertation. To myself.

I have at last been granted revelation. I could not understand why the OP chose this worst of all possible schools. She explained. I pulled a face. She quoted history, scripture, (maybe not) imaginary statutes. I wandered away ....

This business of lack of separation of church and state. Mocked more than once. But the OP - from her position of blanket dismissal of all things English - made the utterly fascinating mistake of believing that since all English schools taught religion, it would make no difference, with regards to that point, which school she chose. And that therefore she could simply choose the school she liked best for other reasons.

Have I got that right? I'm sorry if it was blindingly obvious to everyone else. (I may even have read it here several times but...) It's taken me days...

She then made the more obvious mistake of rushing her homework - and not establishing that private schools are specifically not under the same obligations as state schools.

She then finds herself at a resolutely, actively, Christian school and

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans.....

Can you imagine the headmistress' face? Being asked to solve the problem of running a Christian school?

I don't have a single useful thing to add to the debate. Once again I seem to have learned more in a couple of days here than I would in a month of dedicated study elsewhere. But I really, really want this particular 3 year old boy to be able to walk into a gallery anywhere in Europe in ten years time and be able to understand the pictures in front of him; and in fifteen years to be able to study "Paradise Lost" on an equal footing with the rest of his class. And throughout his life, to be a support to his friends, through good times and bad, even if he doesn't believe what they believe.

If someone is a true atheist - absolutely certain that no god/s exist - I can't see why any religious stories should be 'offensive' any more than Cinderella's pumpkin coach or Zeus on Mt Olympus. Fr'instance, OP is very much concerned that her DS shan't hear the Nativity story because it so very antithetical to Jewish beliefs. Which she doesn't share or want him to hold!
If DC come home and have been told 'this is true' it is very easy for parents to rubbish it. Unbelief is easier than religion.

I would use it as a basis for discussion and assume your child is intelligent rather than someone who just takes you word for it. I find it much safer to bring up DC who feels able to question anyone, including parents.

exoticfruits - I agree. If any of my DC had come home saying "Mr X says Hitler was right and we ought to join the Nazi party" I would have relished the ensuing discussion. My DS1 sends me National Secular Soc pamphlets and 'Jesus & Mo' cartoons; I send him a card saying "I have lit a candle for at Walsingham" etc etc

OP, you still haven't explained how you would feel about a European parent who walked into an American school and insisted that they should provide your child with out of earshot private tuition during the ceremony of saluting the flag.

Bearing in mind that this is a ceremony that is at least as alien to most Europeans as an act of Christian or other worship to you.

Cory - That IS something to consider. If I was in the US with school-aged DC I would want them removed from any hand-on-heart talking to a flag. Any flag.

Children are intelligent and have lots of opinions if a you ever bother to ask. It is doing them a huge injustice just to brush it off as a fairy story rather than say 'I think it is a fairy story because........' But some people believe........ What do you think?

I had friends who went to live in US - it was supposed be forever but they didn't like some aspects of the way children were brought up, they decided that you couldn't go to another country and make your children odd because you wanted to cherry pick the bits you liked and leave the rest. They came back to UK after a couple of years.
It is a case of 'when in Rome...........' IMO

I think some of you are missing the point about why other parents may not wish their kids to listen to the sort of religious views expressed during assemblies and other acts of worship.

Just to be absolutely clear, I personally, have no problem with my kids learning about religious at all.

But, that is not what happens in many assemblies. Perhaps some of you don't understand this??

Praying to God is not the same as learning about religions. Being told that a woman named Mary had a virgin birth and Christ died in agony (just look at the way his hands were nailed to the cross and the thorns dug into his head) so that we all can be saved and we are all sinners is not the same thing as learning about religions. You do understand that this is presented as fact?

Now, suggesting that my kids should just put up with this is incredibly disrespectful.

And, those of you who are suggesting that thes concern is that my kids will somehow convert to Christianity or will not question this stuff or that I don't credit them with the intelligence to question this stuff are missing the point spectacularly.

My kids and I have and have had the religion conversation many times.

It is precisely because there really is no chance that they will change their minds and they think this stuff is absolute irrational and offensive nonsense that I object to it.

Perhaps some of you don't know how some assemblies work.

400 people in a hall being told what to think and to worship a God they don't believe in and ask for forgiveness (for what?) with no opportunity for question or discussion is the way many assembleis work.

In Catholic schools you also get lectures about the evils of homosexuality, contraception and abortion.

My kids find this stuff incredibly frustrating and yes, offensive, to their intelligence if nothing else. Why should they have to sit through it twice a week and the rest when it's a complete waste of time. They have made up their minds long ago and would rather spend their time thinking about something more useful or at least a set of beliefs and values that are not entirely anithethical to their world view.

I just don't get why so many of you think that they should just sit through it when you would be straight down the school if their teachers started telling them that the world was flat or that Tuesday is spelt Tusdday.

As for the poster who seems to be implying that she would also have no problem with the school teaching fascism because 'I would have relished the ensuing discussion' WTF?

I mean what the actual fuck?

And, again, the fact that other countries may have practices which are equally controversial or nonsensical or indoctrinating is not a justification for putting up with such practices in our own country.

That's a bizarre and regressive argument.

And the argument that other people should put up with this stuff because you do is also pretty weird.

If you don't mind it, fine.

But you have no right to tell other people to put up with stuff that they don't want to.

I think that as a supply teacher I have been to more assemblies than most and they are really not like that, whendidyoulast.
You have the right to withdraw your child.

Exactly how many schools have you been to assemblies in?

Oh, right, well if you've never seen them, they must not exist

The plural of anecdote again??

I can't even begin to count my schools and I have come across your example once and he was a visiting 'born again' American pastor- I don't think the Head had quite appreciated what he would be like or he wouldn't have invited him!

'You have the right to withdraw your child.'

Yep. So they can hear the same assembly from a neighbouring classroom whilst playing with a lump of playdough (or more likely nothing at all given their age) and being subject to the sort of derision and questioning about why they are not participating that is depressingly evident even from adults on this thread.

Thanks for that suggestion.

So how many schools have you been to assembles in?

exotic, I'm not going to compare the number of school assemblies I've seen with your experience.

You might want to ask yourself why your instinct is to question my experience.

Not very supportive is it?

And you wonder why I don't want to subject my kids to the sort of flak they would get for daring not to conform.

I am arguing because I have seen your example once, over decades and all sorts of schools and at least 7LEAs- you won't say how many school assemblies

Actually, sorry, it's not just my experience is it.

It is the legal requirement that schools have an act of daily worship which should be broadly Christian in character so it's surprising that you find it surprising that many do just this.

I do think that so much of it has been absorbed as a natural part of our culture that many people cease to notice it.

I am not going to support someone who is trying to tell me that their sort of assembly is the norm when I know it isn't- as a fact. It may happen- it is not the norm.

Of course they do it- it is the law! Any parent can read up on it in the education act -and their rights. Schools do not interpret it the way you think they do.