withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

[outofthebox]

Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

Lots of people have commented on withdrawal from their own experiences of withdrawal, from their experiences as teachers and their experiences as pupils in schools that have had dcs withdrawn. I'm sorry that non of these people gave you the answer you wanted.

Have you actually asked your DC what he wants to do? I think that by that age I was already more interested in what I thought- no one was asking my mother to sit through it.

outofthebox
Well done for coming back.
It all turned into rather a kerfuffle while you were safely out of the way.

Two things.
Its the summer holidays.
Have a break from schools and then in September go in to your sons school and just watch and listen a few times.
Try to observe what is actually happening.
Then ask for tours of a couple of local state primaries
And just watch and listen.
Say nothing.
Try to get a feel for how it works before deciding on your next move.

And please trust us that the UK's compulsory RE education is the best breeding ground for atheists yet invented

As an aside, does anyone know what British JWs do at Easter, about things like Easter Fayres, eggs, chicks, etc.? I just read they don't celebrate the resurrection, so I presume all of that must be very awkward, too. God forbid an Easter bonnet competition or believing in the Easter bunny (I assume all that is out for OP, too).

dunno, but DH has worked in Exclusive Brethren schools - THEY ARE ODD

It does seem a little bit of an overreaction to want your child so far removed from hymn practice and prayers that he can't possibly overhear them. However far you remove him from the scene, you are still removing him from his friends and not letting him join in with something everyone else is doing and he's hardly going to fail to notice that. Basically, he is at some point going to question what on earth is so bad about whatever the others are doing that he is not even allowed to have an inkling of what they are doing (as if his friends won't ask him why he's never there for hymn practice, etc, anyway...). And all this in the UK, a country whose "Christianity" is so wishy washy that it genuinely is easy to make up your own mind whether you want to believe in it; like some of the moral messages and the occasional excuse for a party, but otherwise reject it; or think it's all a load of bunkum and no God exists at all. I'm sure you'll find some schools that are more wishy washy than others, though. Your best bet is a state community primary school with an atheist headteacher...

At the risk of getting back to the point

I am a militant atheist. I, like you and others on here, very very strongly object to my children being subjected to "an act of Christian worship" every day. I don't think this sort of thing has any place in our schools (I have no problem with RE as education, just not making them worship in assembly).

When my DD started school, I went to speak to the HT about the worship and about how it would work if I withdrew my DD (and DS the following year) from it. She encouraged me to attend a few assemblies, and it became clear that, in this school, the requirement is not really adhered to . My children are in Yr 2 and 3 now, I have attended many assemblies and none have had any "acts of worship". I am well aware this is technically not allowed, but while they continue with this approach, I am happy and have no problem with my children attending assembly.

They do have the Vicar of a local church attend ever so often, and I deliberated whether to remove the children for these assemblies. However, I don't; no-one else does despite there being a variety of different religions in the school, and I have no wish to mark my children out as the odd ones. As others have said, withdrawing from religious elements of assembly is very very rare in the UK. I don't think a thrice yearly assembly from the Vicar is appropriate, considering no other religions are invited in to conduct assemblies, but I live with it.

So; do look closely at your state school options. Some may actually have more Christian content in assembly than your current school, whilst some may essentially have none. I'm assuming you need reception for Sept 2014; if this year, you may have little option on state schools as the admissions have been completed.

Most state schools will try to dissuade you from withdrawing, for what I think are good reasons; it will mark your child out as different, they will need a teacher removed from assembly (and thus from their own class) to supervise them, and assemblies contain an awful lot of interesting,useful, fun stuff that they might miss. If they just leave for the prayers its very disruptive and will make your child very obviously "different"; hard to cope with when you are just 4 or 5. Withdrawing your child from something is also a surefire way of making them more interested in whatever you are not letting them be part of, too!

I don't know anyone who has actually withdrawn their child, and in many years of Mumsnet I don't think I've come across anyone on here who has. Several, like me, have deliberated on it, but not done it; it's really not worth it. Christian worship in the UK is usually very very different from the US!

read the first 5 pages and the last 2, so missed the bunfight - but I have just spotted that the OP has said her DS is 3.5. Certainly, at the beginning on the thread she was talking about 'his views'. I am now struggling with the concept that a child of that age has a view on religion, above and beyond what his parents have drummed (or not) into him. Really, how on earth do you know that he's a Jewish Humanist? You want him to be, of course, but you know you can't make him believe? And that, in order for things like prayers and hymns to mean anything, they have to be accompanied by faith?

I went to a fee-paying CofE school - I'm a Catholic, went to Mass every Sunday. Back in those days there was no option not to attend religious assembly (held in the school's consecrated chapel), RE lessons, and special services on major Christian feast days (as our school was open on Good Friday, I ended up going to church twice - one CofE service with school, and Mass at home). There were Catholics, Jews (probably the largest non-CofE group), Hindus and Muslims. I don't recall any of this involvment resulting in mass-conversations to Anglicanism. It certainly didn't make me Cof E. And although other religions weren't taught at the school, I did come out knowing a lot about the other girls' religions, especially Judaism, and always knew when it was Yom Kippur or Rosh-Hashannah (sp?) or Diwali, or whatever, and a general idea of what was being celebrated. Which is surely a good thing?

Also - whatever school you end up with, your son will learn British and European hsitory. Religion is all over that, he won't be able to get away from it!

mass-conversations? Really.

Mass-conversions.

FWIW
I went to CofE private primary, hymns and prayers every morning, grace before lunch and termly services at the local church.
Thence to GDST private nominally CofE secondary - ditto on the god stuff.
I was baptised after I arrived in the UK. By the time I was confirmed (3 line whip from the parents) I knew I did not believe any of it -
but the vicar told me to treat it as 'a lesson in self discipline'
at the service the Bishop greeted me with "so you're the atheist" and promptly confirmed me into the Church

And when I go back to the US I see none of that fluffy, half arsed inclusive Christianity, or Jewishness or anything else for that matter.

I seriously don't know what all of the objectors here would do in the reverse situation where you sent your child to an American state school since RE is not taught and there are no assemblies... would you object?<

I would send them to the local school and send them to Cheder at the weekend if so inclined. That's how it used to be in the UK before the rise of the Jewish faith schools. It would never occur to me to object at the lack of RE education in a state school if that is the law. It would be my responsibility to teach my kids. If it was that important to me then I would opt for a Jewish school if I could afford it.

Ya know, I went to check out the local hebrew school to enroll my son in for afterschool for cultural reasons- and I couldn't do it! Same issues with prayers, bloody torah stories etc.... so difficult.<

What an offensive statement. To talk about Hebrew School in such a derogatory fashion. Anyway, since when has Hebrew School been about culture. It has always been about teaching religion, history, Torah etc including culture. If you are an atheist, as you claim, why would you even consider going near a synagogue for education.

I'm a militant atheist and paid up member of the National Secular Society and the British Humanist Society - as is my husband (who is also of Jewish extraction, but very prawn and bacon eating).

We both sat on our local SACRE (Standing Advisory Council for Religious Education) as the Humanist and Atheist reps - and were warmly welcomed by the other religious representatives.

I am a lifelong atheist of atheist parents, but attended a school with full chapel every morning and in the days when RE meant studying the Bible and no mention was ever made of other religions. It did not dent my atheism in the slightest - however I do know all the words to hymns when I go to weddings in churches, and I have a much better understanding of some of the great art and literature in the world.

We are not bringing our daughter up to have any particular views - she has grandparents who are staunchly Jewish and grandparents who are CofE vicars and grandparents who are profoundly atheist as well as living in a very diverse area of London where every faith under the sun is represented. We do bring her up to be questioning of everything.

Much as I dislike the idea of a daily act of worship, I don't intend to withdraw her because a) I don't want it to be forbidden fruit and b) more importantly I don't want her to feel different from her friends.

I don't believe in the existence of a historical Jesus, but since the Nativity is exactly the same as the story of Mithras, Isis etc I'm not too bothered if she is 3rd Camel. Xmas carols are lovely tunes and part of British heritage so I'm fine with them - evangelical hymns on the other hand put my teeth on edge. Schools here will generally celebrate Hannukah, Eid, Diwali and anything else that they can plan a lesson round which can only be a good thing. You don't have to believe in any of it.

Many Xmas traditions are actually pagan in origin so you can celebrate spending time with family and friends and still have a tree and decorations without having to make it religious in any way - just treat it like Thanksgiving or 4th July or Guy Fawkes night (celebrates burning Catholics on bonfires really).

As long as schools respect that my daughter has the right not to believe in god if she so choses, and has the right to sit quietly during prayers but does not need to take part (I don't sign up to the idea of having respect for other people's beliefs, but I do believe in respecting other people's right to quiet reflection time in a group setting) then I'm happy for her to take part in the worship bit of assemblies even though I disapprove.

RE lessons are totally fine by me and a good thing.

Far better to chill over this and save your ire for the more important problems that may crop up.

If you've opted for a private Xtian school then frankly I'm amazed how accommodating the HT is being - v unusual I imagine. We purposely selected non-faith schools even though that meant there were 4/6 of our local schools (all Outstanding) that we could not apply to. I HATE the fact that we have any faith schools in this country and the discrimination that they entail - and I actively campaign against them, but when it comes to my child's education I work with what is on offer.

Overt religiosity is general regarded with wariness in the UK - take Alistair Campbell telling Tony Blair 'We don't do God' for example - and we are one of the most secular countries on the planet despite having no separation of Church and State so I really wouldn't worry too much.

Anyway, since when has Hebrew School been about culture. It has always been about teaching religion, history, Torah etc including culture. If you are an atheist, as you claim, why would you even consider going near a synagogue for education.

I would consider this. Guess you could call me a 'wishy-washy' Jew.

Since that's my background, an 'act of collective worship' in the Jewish tradition feels vaguely comfortable. While anything that refers to Jesus as the Son of God, does bother me. I respect that Christians believe that, but we don't.

As whendidyoulast said, 'if you have a different faith from the one espoused by the school then a great deal of what is taught (often as fact) is really downright offensive.'

I didn't think it would convert my kids. Unlike Op, I wouldn't mind if they overheard Christianity; of course I wanted them to learn about it. But I didn't want them taught that Christianity is 'right', the way maths has a right and a wrong answer.

Don't know if that makes sense. It's harder with little ones. I was so grateful that my kids' primary school broke the law. lol.

I actually really loved assembly, despite being thoroughly atheist both then and now. Nothing like a good rousing Methodist hymn tune to get the day off to a good start!

My secret fantasy team building technique would be to have assemblies at work - half an hour of nice loud jolly singing, a few announcements and a bit of thinking about the deeper meaning of what we're up to this week.

Wouldn't that be better than yet another ghastly team meeting?

At my kids primary, I as the Atheist governor at a CofE school, was chosen to go through the RE and worship policies because I was deemed impartial

I have enough self awareness and understanding of why I am not religious to not feel in the least threatened by it.
It is interesting that some atheists find religion threatening rather than irrelevant fairy stories.

A sensible post Pyrrah.
I brought mine up as Christian, but from before they were born I realised that they would make their own mind up. I have never met an adult who said 'I am a.................because my mother told me I was and censored any alternative views'.
Withdrawing from assembly makes it all seem very exciting, and anything that upset my mother would have been something to explore and find out why!

Frankly rather shocked OP didn't do any research before enrolling DC if this was important.

And note, OP, that private school doesn't guarantee accommodations for RE or G&T even in the US. Speaking from experience. You research, research, research.

I'm still trying to figure out where you're coming from with your assumptions of how far accommodations must go to suit an individual. You signed up for this school, they didn't approach you and request your DC attend, did they?

Wondering whether this is a post on behalf of someone else or reiterating someone else's rant. Admittedly have not read ALL replies yet. Humanist Jews from USA (both coasts, OP) who I know wouldn't be in tizzy over this and would view this as the educational opportunity it is for their DC. Just saying. So sorry that you have such angst about this. Truly hope angst and entitlement mentality don't become further issues for you and your DC.

David Milliband is a Jewish atheist and his son goes to a C of E school.

Ah, but he's not a conservative. That must be the difference.

I think this is one for classics

My personal favourite is outrage that Hebrew school involves some talk about the Torah

Never mind classics!

How much money can we gather to persuade pennefab not to hurt us?

Whendidyoulast. Sorry, only just come back to this since I posted, but my post was based entirely on the op's, I hadn't seen your post when I wrote it. :)

Also love OP's complaints NO ONE has given their experiences on withdrawal when loads of people have

Still confused as to how you can be Jewish AND an atheist AND a Humanist...

Sorry, somethingyesterday, didn't mean to be mean there.