withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

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Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

' but since that's what happens, I think it's alright to find a way to be cool with it.'

And that was way I raised South Africa.

Thankfully not everybody shares the attitude that you should 'find a way to be cool' with things you don't agree with.

Otherwise nothing would ever get changed.

The daily act of Christian worship has no place is 21st century schools. It is right that people should question it and not find ways to be cool with it.

Oh for heaven's sake, whendid, if you think that commenting 'you might need to be ready for this not to work out' is derision or an attack, then there is no conversation to be had.

To be honest, you're the one bandying around terms like 'silly' and 'offensive', and you've not engaged with a single thing I've said either: considering I don't even disagree about atheism, I think you're being unnecessarily aggressive and hostile and really rather silly.

It all seems very anti religion on here, perhaps you have seen some very boring vicars and have been put off by that. But can you imagine that if you had the greatest story that you'd ever heard and the answer to everyones problems in your opinion wouldn't you want to share it.

And, one last time, singing carols and having assemblies from the vicar sometimes is not the same as apartheid in SA, and to suggest that it is, is fatuous beyond words.

OK, well you'll just have to accept that I, like many other parents, DO find it offensive.
Do you think you can respect my views?

Sorry. Not really. Taking such an extreme stance is IMO as bonkers as an extreme religious stance.
Do you allow your DC to read Harry Potter? Or is that offensive too?

IThinkof, again, what's with the personal attacks on the OP? She clearly knows exactly what she wants and has already spoken to the HT.

The HT said 'we'll deal with it' implying that she is happy to accommodate the OP's son but has not yet achieved this (hence the playdough).

It would have been a different scenario if the head had said that the school would not be appropriate for the children but she hasn't.

It's reasonable for the OP to expect the head to put her money where her mouth is and meet the needs of the OP's child.

'And, one last time, singing carols and having assemblies from the vicar sometimes is not the same as apartheid in SA, '

You continue to miss the point. I never said or implied it was the same thing.

The point I was making is that we shouldn't have to accept the practices of other countries where we think they are wrong just because that is the way things happen in that country.

That is what somebody implied to the OP earlier in the thread.

And '' but since that's what happens, I think it's alright to find a way to be cool with it.' is the same thing.

People should not have to put up with things they don't agree with.

That is the way we move on as a society - by challenging and changing things that are considered to be the way things are.

No: you're being bullish, ridiculous and frankly offensive. Enough already.

'Do you allow your DC to read Harry Potter?'

WTF?

You do realize that Harry Potter is fiction?

The problem with the religious content of many assemblies is that is presented as fact.

My children have been told that they are sinners and that a woman named Mary had a virgin birth and that Christ was resurrected to save us all and that the world was flooded to get rid of sinners etc etc AS IF THIS WAS ALL TRUE.

TheOriginal, again, what is with the personal attacks?

Why can't you stick to the debate?

It's very odd.

Where on earth have I been offensive?

What's wrong with a 3yo playing with playdoh? Seriously, what's wrong with that? Thats what 3yos do, even G&T ones. My 9yo is G&T and still likes playdoh. If she wants him to do something else then she has to ask but she also needs to accept that the HT would be within her rights to not base scheduling around the wants of one set of parents. When the HT says she is dealing with it then the OP can ask how, she can ask why being marked late is a problem, it is after all a private school. Pointing this out is not a personal attack ffs. If you join a faith community as a person of no faith you need to either join in, sit quietly or accept that you are going to be specifically excluded. If you went to a wedding mass people wouldn't expect an atheist to pray but nor would they expect prayers to be forgone to placate the atheists. Again, we are not talking about the act of daily worship in non faith state schools required by law, we are talking about the specific choice of dropping an atheist into a faith community.

When - you are coming across as absolutely ludicrous.

To compare school assemblies with a murderous and oppressive system like Apartheid... I take it you're not a black South African are you?

As a Muslim, I think the UK has a very good balance when it comes to religious matters and I find it disturbing when people claim the US and France are better do to school secularism, as both societies seem considerably less tolerant of minority religions.

It is true a lot of people believe it to be true, people have died in their belief it is true if you don't want to believe it then thats up to you but if I am wrong I've lost nothing.Why are people so defensive about it.I don't believe in other peoples religions but I don't lose any sleep about it

'To compare school assemblies with a murderous and oppressive system like Apartheid.'

Er, nobody did this.

My point which was very clearly made is that is't not OK to tell people they should just accept the way that things happen in particular countries because that's the way things are in those countries.

That's pretty much what the OP was told oh, as well as being told other such gems such as she is 'mad' and 'entitled' and all because she doesn't want her son to participate in a daily act of Christian worship, which, let's face it, has no place in 21st century Britain.

Well, she's been hounded off long ago. Well done Mumsnetters!

Of course people have to put up with things they don't agree with all the time. Because we don't all agree about the same things. Clearly.

I'm with the PP who said that this isn't an argument about whether the act of worship should be enforced in state schools. It's actually about the OP saying that she chose to put her child in a private Christian school and would now like to completely segregate him from any religious content, and asking if anyone else had any experience of this. People have, quite fairly IMO, pointed out that this is a very odd thing to do, and that if she felt so strongly about it, perhaps she could have researched a bit more thoroughly.

OP, I hope you are able to resolve this issue in a way you are comfortable with, but please do take some of the advice on this thread.

There are times when it is absolutely appropriate to acknowledge and work with what is happening - not everything needs to be fought. And you have drawn a parallel, I think, because by saying 'thank goodness not everyone finds a way to be cool with what's happening', you're suggesting that that attitude has something to do with allowing apartheid to remain unchallenged.

But sometimes that attitude is entirely appropriate, I suggest.

Some things do. Like apartheid. Some do not. I am going to leave you to read back some of my posts about where, why and how I don't - as an atheist - think that some Christian aspects of schools are not a bad thing, and can even be a good thing, because I'd be really interested in your comments if you have chance .

I am of Jewish descent and agnostic. DS went to a catholic primary and it has had no effect other than further entrenching his own belief that God is a man made construct, a social and political project. Interestingly at 18 months old on first entering a church, he did something that for the first time in all my years made me seriously consider whether god existed. He ran to the alter, stared up and said "hello god" no one had even mentioned god to him.

OP as a Jewish humanist I really think you must acknowledge two things: you must respect and have faith in your children as humans, in their ability to decide for themselves. As a humanist you should really be taking the approach that human beings are masters of their own history, we shape the world and must seek out all available knowledge and learn to think critically. Denying your children knowledge and understanding sits in direct conflict with your belief and trust in humanity. Second: To push your own belief upon your children, is no better than a Christian school that indoctrinates its pupils.

My children have been told that they are sinners and that a woman named Mary had a virgin birth and that Christ was resurrected to save us all and that the world was flooded to get rid of sinners etc etc AS IF THIS WAS ALL TRUE.
And? I encountered exactly the same and have managed to come out agnostic. You obviously have no faith in your DCs' intellectual abilities to question what they are told.

Christian worship, which, let's face it, has no place in 21st century Britain.
Sorry to burst your offended bubble but the Census tells us that about 70% of the UK is Christian.

Hi People- one last comment....

Wow! Such an involved thread and I really want to thank whenyoudidlast for explaining my position obviously better than I could. The show of intolerance and rush to force my conformity is unbelievable! Surely some of you are secure enough to challenge the status quo?

I just wanted to say- that throughout this thread, I explained that I truly did not understand that the private school system would not protect my statutory rights and now that I understand this, I will obviously move my son to a state system should the HT not be accommodating. I also stated that I really didn't understand the differences between the two,my son is just 3.5 and I am of an overseas educational background, and have never attended an assembly in my life and so before ppl post attacks on my "stupidity" they should read the rest of the thread.

The lack of actual content on the withdrawal aspect is really astounding. Even if "no one does it", surely SOMEONE has for whatever reasons (it shouldn't matter!), and I'd have liked to hear from them....

Cheers

I should make sure that you understand the UK state system before you change. England has no secular schools. Community schools are Christian, they are just non denominational and some can be more religious than one affiliated to a church. You need to read the various education acts on collective worship and RE teaching. You have the right to withdraw your child but in reality they may be sitting in the classroom next door. You seem to be in your position through not understanding the ethos of the school- I fear that you are going to move to state education without having read 1998 education act or even googling the position.

People born in this country make the mistake of thinking that England has secular state schools- they don't have any!