withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

[outofthebox]

Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

'I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically.'

That's actually what the OP said.

Seems an entirely reasonable suggestion to me. I wonder why, when she is using words such as 'I thought' and 'just maybe' and 'if' that she is being characterised as 'expecting' or 'demanding'.

Odd.

I don't withdraw my kids because of the playdough scenario and because they would face ignorant attitudes of people who just don't respect their views and think that they and we should just put up with it because that's the way things are.

Like many on here.

So yes, she's not suggested that the school schedules the G& T provision during assemblies (which would clearly exclude those G&T children who DO wish to participate in assemblies) - but she has suggested that the schedule his G&T provision during this time. Which doesn't sound very feasible, for all the reasons others have stated.

Being as atheist as they come, I don't especially like the fact that schools have to reflect 'broadly Christian values', and were I managing this from the top down, I might well change that. However in practice most state schools aren't particularly OTT about that, if they're not actually faith schools. Can't speak for private schools, but if I were paying for one, it might just possibly have been something I'd've researched first!

However, whilst I'm not massively pro-worship, I do think comparing the fact that the local vicar may come into assembly and talk about Christian kindness sometimes, or that children make Christmas cards, or sing about the baby Jesus &c &c to apartheid South Africa is plain silly, and completely undermines genuine atheist/humanist arguments and concerns.

I do not like the fact that my kids have to sit through a load of stuff that they do not agree with. At best they are bored at worst they are offended and most of the time they're just frustrated.

So when they come home saying "what is the point of Maths?" or "why do I have to study tectonic plates?" your answer will be ...?

I don't understand religion, it seems utterly bonkers to me. But it means an awful lot to an awful lot of people so I worry that I am missing something and tend to err on the side of agnostic, not atheist. How can you be "offended" by others' religion? Bemused certainly, but offended is a bit heavy-handed.

'Which doesn't sound very feasible,'

If it isn't feasible then I'm sure the OP would understand.

It is common for kids to receive one to one tuition during assemblies and form periods and sometimes during PSHE or PE lessons though.

It is not unreasonable to ask.

And asking is not the same as demanding or expecting.

So I continue to wonder why the OP is being attacked and mischaracterised.

Why are some of you doing this?

'How can you be "offended" by others' religion? '

I cannot speak for the OP.

I am not at all bothered by learning about religions.

But can you honestly not see why an atheist might have a problem with her children being told they are sinners and Christ died so and was resurrected so they could be saved?

Can you not get how the idea of a virgin birth and that God made everything might be offensive and just a bit at odds with the lesson on evolution and human reproduction that might follow it?

The OP is Jewish so there's a whole other dimension.

The emphasis on Christmas would be totally inappropriate as it is for many of the Muslim studetns I teach.

No, you're right that it's not unreasonable to ask - if you don't ask, you don't get, and all that - but I think it would be very far from unreasonable were the head to say it can't be done, and if I were the OP I'd be managing my expectations accordingly!

Well if you're Jewish obviously there are going to be very vast swathes of Christianity that are going to be strongly at odds with what your own beliefs, yes.

That's why, if I was, I wouldn't choose a private Christian school for my children!

But I have never heard of children being 'told they are sinners', honestly!

'"what is the point of Maths?" or "why do I have to study tectonic plates?" your answer will be ...?'

I have no problem with answering these questions. I have no problem with explaining why it is good to learn about religions.

I cannot, however, explain to them why they should be told that there was a virgin birth and God allowed his own son to be killed and resurrected etc etc any more than I could explain to them why they should be told that there are thousands of invisible fairies and elves running the world.

Me neither - so I say 'yeah, silly isn't it - I've never really understood why people believe that'.

Piece of piss.

'But I have never heard of children being 'told they are sinners', honestly!'

That is part of the narrative of Christianity. It is part of the Lord's prayer.

As I said earlier, this stuff becomes so entrenched that many people fail to even notice it, let alone question it.

So you choose to put up with it The Original. Good for you. But please respect the fact that some people do not want their children to be told this stuff.

I don't expect my kids to be told anything during their lessons that is 'silly' or offensive. So why should they be told this stuff during assemblies?

You may think it's OK but please respect the fact that I don't.

Can you not get how the idea of a virgin birth and that God made everything might be offensive and just a bit at odds with the lesson on evolution and human reproduction that might follow it?

Um, no. Bonkers, yes; offensive, no. I would have thought that it was more of a problem for the believers to try to resolve actually.

I don't want my kids praying or worshipping when they don't believe in God.

Many, many other parents feel the same way. The problem is not these parents - let's respect them just as we respect parents who do have a faith - the problem is the legal requirement for a dialy act of Christian worship.

No, the Lord's Prayer is: 'forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us' - that's not the same as teaching them Original Sin. It's not, in my opinion, that bad a message to give!

I think most schools manage to combine an emphasis on the better bits of Christianity - it's nice to forgive, to be charitable, to be compassionate - with logic and reason, evolution and so on. Now I know that's a bit pick-and-choose, but it seems to me a reasonable MO.

For example, dd's school is not a faith school but it is CofE. We're all very much atheist in this family, but when a teacher died, dd did go to the voluntary chapel service for her, and took the opportunity to sit and reflect and show respect.

Now of course you could do that just as well in any room, but it so happens that it happened in a chapel - and dd didn't find any conflict in using that service in her own way, respecting the teacher and retaining her own beliefs, just as you, as an adult, would if you were invited to a funeral for someone you loved and that funeral was held in a church with much talk of Better Places and Faithful Servants. You might not believe a word of it, but you'd still want to go (I assume), and you would not find your own beliefs challenged or troubled.

'Bonkers, yes; offensive, no'

OK, well you'll just have to accept that I, like many other parents, DO find it offensive.

Do you think you can respect my views?

(ps I don't think anything I've said is disrespectful: I don't disrespect those who would prefer this to be different, and in many ways I am one of those people, but have found a compromise that I think is ok).

YOu missed my point, TheOriginal.

I said just because it is the law in this country to have a collective act of worship does not mean it is a good thing and that people from other countries should just put up with it or go back to their own countries which has been strongly implied here.

I didn't miss your point, I'm discussing it. No, the law doesn't mean it's a good thing, but since that's what happens, I think it's alright to find a way to be cool with it.

I don't think OP should go back to her own country, but I think a bit more research on her part would have been a good idea. Anyway, does that law even apply in private schools?

It is disrespectful to deride or attack parents for disagreeing with their kids being taught religious values and beliefs that they do not share and may find offensive.

And have I derided or attacked anyone?

this discussion is silly, i repeat, the OP specifically chose an overtly religious school for her child and is now complaining about it.

'I think it would be very far from unreasonable were the head to say it can't be done, and if I were the OP I'd be managing my expectations accordingly!'

There has been nothing to indicate that the OP would not do this.

I refer you again to the words in her OP 'I thought that just maybe' and 'if'

It's also worth noting that the OP came up with her own, (again very reasonable IMHO) compromise of simply bringing her son in after the assembly but the school did not seem happy with this.

Clearly, the OP needs to sit down with the headmistress of the school and find a way forward. I'm sure she knows this.

i wonder if someone should set up an atheist/humanist free school ? would Gove go for it?

whendid do you think the OP would have had the same reaction if she had put her child in a non faith state school?

The OP reads to me like her communication skills are an obstacle course, she doesn't really know what she wants and doesn't really know what the school is offering. She needs to ask specific questions to somebody who can actually do something ie the HT.