withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

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Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

This is an interesting thread to me because I am currently in the midst of trying to figure out how we are going to approach teaching our children about religion. We are in the US and want our children to learn about religion.

Anyway, OP, you will find in the UK the classes are learning about religion, not christianty. The focus is on learning about the basis of different cultures and there is the historical context. I am Jewish and went to an Anglican school. We all had to attend Church on Sunday and RE twice a week. My parents took the approach that we as a family need to assimilate and learn about the customs in the UK. It did us no harm and I really enjoyed RE lessons.

However, it is worth noting that you have the option to send your children to a Jewish school or the American school in London. That might be a better fit for your family.

It is interesting that atheists seem more worried about their children 'catching' religion than believers are about their children becoming atheists. I speak as the church-going mother of 3 atheists and a 'don't know'. School religion is off-putting.

State primary here. Jehovah's Witness kids are withdrawn from RE lessons, assemblies, Christmas plays, birthday parties etc. They sit in the library whilst assembly takes place, and go to another class when Christmas play songs etc are being practised. When we make things in class for xmas/Easter, they make something different. To keep them totally out of sight/sound of such activities would be pretty much impossible and we're not a religious school. Equally, if you go shopping at Christmas time you'll get carols etc playing in the shops, so you will never be able to avoid it completely.

If your school is a Christian school, then their RE about Christianity probably will be of the 'this is true' variety. Your child should learn about other religions though. You cannot expect a child to grow up without any knowledge of the beliefs others might have, how would he function in adult society, where many people do believe in one or another religion. What if a work colleague was muslim and fasting at Ramadan, or a Sikh wearing a turban? Would he ask a muslim woman to take her head scarf off because it looked silly, or ask a devout Jew/Muslim to eat meat that was not kosher/halal? Learning about the beliefs of others, is learning about the world.

Have you talked to your child about it and asked how he feels? It is just an accident of birth who you get as parents and the luck of the draw if you happen to fit with it. Who knows what he will be when he is older? Lots of DCs of Christians become atheists and vice versa- not to mention all the other religions.
Why do you feel the need to censor? Are you frightened that he won't make the 'right' choice?
I have never understood this obsession that DCs must follow you and think as you do. I brought up my DSs as Christians, took them to church - they wouldn't go after about 8 yrs- they don't believe in God. Why is this a big deal? We are the same people.

I found that my children's community primary school had too much religion by far because of a strong relationship between the head and a local vicar. When the head left the vicar ceased to be a part of the school community. At community schools the degree of 'religiousness' can be very variable and it is difficult for parents to make a knowledgeable choice (where a choice is available).

However at a overtly religious school this is really not the case. If the school states that it is Christian then it will teach with that ethos. Teachers may be required to be Christians and the religious studies will probably be biased towards Christianity. None of this is hidden. As an atheist I therefore chose against our local Catholic and CoE schools even though they were otherwise both good and convenient (I was however lucky enough to live near other decent schools).

We moved to Canada (via NYC) five years ago and are now in a totally secular system and I really think my children are the poorer for it, as they have very very little exposure to teaching about any faith/religion. Given how much religion has and continues to affect the world I think it is something that it is important to learn about. Also all Christmas songs are about Santa, and frankly they are mostly just awful (plus I don't subscribe to Santa stuff, so don't really see why it should be imposed as 'that's what Christmas is all about').

OP I hope you had a good read of nooka's post as well as all the others. Perhaps you should visit an re lesson at your son's school to get a sense of how RE is taught in the UK. As others have mentioned, it is a question of teaching comparative religion - this is what some people believe, this is what this culture and this religion practice. As such it is a positive sign of a pluralist society, as described in this article www.iarf.net/REBooklet/Hull.htm

And countries like france and the us, where religion is banned in school, have the problem that children only learn religion from their parents and so create less understanding and more extreme religious views.

You have a good option for your son not to have to sing songs he does not believe in, or say prayers similarly - he can miss part of assembly. But to deny him any exposure to what others believe you are simply encouraging him to be narrow minded and poorly educated.

I find many aspects of secular society offensive and can guarantee that if I send my children to a state school (we're in Australia so no RS) I will not agree with all of the views of every teacher who ever educates them. That's a given. So my job as a parent isn't to segregate my children, nor is it to brainwash them. It is, surely, to teach them to have respect for others and to think critically about all the messages they will receive throughout their lives and make their own minds up.

Personally, I think that subtle messages they are given through the media can be far more damaging in the long run.

Great post Notafoodbaby.

this is bizarre - you send your child to a 'Christian private school' and complain about the religious assembly? for real?

'I've not taught in a (secondary) school which has any reference to religion in assemblies. '

Then those schools are breaking the law.

Many state and non faith schools do follow the law (and therefore exclude non Christian children even if they are in the assembly). The school I went to did and the school my kids go to does.

I repeat that schools are in a no win situation: they either break the law in order to be inclusive or they have a collective act of Christian worship in which case they exclude kids who do share Christian values or beliefs.

Many of you disagree with this so why not support the OP rather than attacking her.

It is also not the case that she EXPECTS the school to provide G & T tuition during that time but she does, again, entirely reasonably, suggest that this tuition (being offered anyway) could be provided during the time her son is not in assembly but is not given a real alternative.

There is no other aspect of school life where parents would accept there kid basically sitting doing nothing because they cannot participate is there?

Parents would be straight on here if kids were excluded from a lesson because of their religious belief and made to sit with some playdough and rightly so.

It is the system that is the problem and not the OP who simply does not want her kids to be excluded from school life and made to sit on their own doing nothing very useful because of their religion.

Actually, burberryqueen, I find it more astonishing that she doesn't seem to get the concept that she is in a foreign land and that, gasp, they do things differently from the Americans. The cheek of it!

but she is paying for her child to attend a "Christian private school" -

and that too senua!

Notafood, I don't get the attitude that says even though I don't like it I should put up with it. You wouldn't put up with it if the school was indoctrinating kids with racist or sexist values that you disagreed with. Now if you can and choose to put up with it, fine but that doesn't mean that you can't respect parents who don't choose to put up with it.

I don't think it's OK that many kids are taught that they are sinners and that Christ rose from the dead to save them and that there is such a thing as a virgin birth in assemblies.

Why should I put up with that if I find it deeply offensive?

Withdrawing my children is not 'segregating' them. It is the school or system which is not representing the diverse set of values and beliefs of children in this country.

I don't withdraw my kids because I know this would cause no end of grief and they would miss out on the important aspects of school life that come part and parcel with assemblies.

But I absolutely respect those people who do.

And I understand how if you are Jewish or Jehovas Witnesses it may well be a different story.

It is disrespectful or ignorant not to understand that some people don't want their kids to sit through this stuff but don't want them to miss out on other aspects of school life either.

'she doesn't seem to get the concept that she is in a foreign land and that, gasp, they do things differently from the Americans'

Doesn't make it right though does it?

So, what we just have to put up with stuff because it's the way things are?

So apartheid in South Africa was fine because its the way things worked over there?

And if we don't like it we should go back to our own countries?

Do you know how bigoted some of you sound?

My kids attend a non faith school but still have to sit through daily acts of Christian worship.

BECAUSE IT IS THE LAW.

Each school has to do it so the private vs state thing is just the way some of you are trying to blame the situation on the OP when it is not her fault.

if you dont want faith in a school don't choose a faith school, surely?
in reality a non-faith school would have far less of this faith stuff.
OP chose a private faith school in the full knowledge of what that would entail and now doesn't like it...?
or am i missing something?

'It is interesting that atheists seem more worried about their children 'catching' religion'

I have no such fear. I do not like the fact that my kids have to sit through a load of stuff that they do not agree with. At best they are bored at worst they are offended and most of the time they're just frustrated.

I would not want them to be told that the world is populated with fairies and elves either. I do not want them to be told that there is such a thing as a virgin birth and that God moves in mysterious ways which is why we have wars.

That is not the same for me as RS lessons where they are learning and questioning and discussing.

Why should this be happening in the 21st century?

'if you dont want faith in a school don't choose a faith school, surely?'

I am not the OP. My kids' school is NOT a faith school.

It is the law for schools, faith and not, to have a daily act of worship which should be Christian in character.

i did mean the OP of course when

'All maintained schools in England must provide a daily act of collective worship. This must reflect the traditions of this country which are, in the main, broadly Christian.'

I do not want my children to worship anything. Many parents feel the same.

Why is this not respected on this thread?

Why should a poster be derided and attacked because she doesn't want her kids to be involved in something that they find offensive and does not respect their values at school?

It's two separate arguments

Argument 1
AIBU to think that the daily act of worship should be scrapped in non faith state schools and there should be a real choice for parents wanting a secular education

Argument 2
AIBU to think that a private Christian school should schedule their G&T provision during assembly/RE time (commonly 10% of the timetable in a faith school) and should ensure that withdrawn dcs can't overhear anything of a religious nature and should ensure the withdrawn dcs don't feel separated.

It's just different, no matter how many times the flaws in the state system are pointed out, it is different. The state system is also under a legal obligation to allow dc to withdraw, the chosen school isn't.

Well, I agree with a lot of the replies you've had. It sounds like you're expecting the school to do a lot for you at a time when it may not be convenient. Sounds like you should have done more research on your school. They do have to cater for all 30 - or whatever - kids in your dc's class, not just your dc!!!!

well I have consulted my children about their experience at state school - and i quote
'assembly once or twice a week with no prayers, although once they gave us a load of gideons bibles which wasnt very accepting of Sikhs or Muslims or Jews. or even Rastas' guess the brainwashing didn't work then...

I see what you mean when and essentially agree but the OP did choose an overtly Christian school for her child.

IThink, the OP has not suggested that the school schedules the G& T provision during assemblies (which would clearly exclude those G&T children who DO wish to participate in assemblies) she has simply suggested that since HER SON IS RECEIVING THIS ANYWAY he might receive it during the assembly time instead of sitting with some playdough.

Why would anybody consider this unreasonable?

If the school can't do it I'm sure the OP would understand but what could possibly be wrong with this very sensible suggestion?