withdrawal from RE/Collective worship AND Gifted/Talented

[outofthebox]

Hello.

I have searched this forum but have been unable to find a specific discussion on the experience parent have had when withdrawing their children from RE and Collective Worship.

We are Jewish Humanist (Atheist) and I object to my son being involved with prayers or any kind or being in a christmas play- nativity involvement is specifically out of the question.

We are also American so my husband and I never had to deal with feelings of exclusion regarding the above issues because religion is not allowed in public schools YEY! We don't really understand the RE system and my first child is just turning 4.

His school has assembly every morning. From what I understand, it is usually of an ethical theme which is terrific, yet it follows by a prayer at the end and then once a week there are hymns and once a week there are relgious plays of a nature which has not yet been made specifically clear or to me.

The school headmistress has not offered any solutions or plans except to say we'll deal with it. This last school year, my son was taken out from practicing for school christmas songs but I know he felt sad about being separated from friends as he was only brought into another room to play with playdough and overheard everyone but him practicing. I'm not sure that overhearing practcing is consistenet with honoring re withdrawal rights. Also as the school is a christian private school run by cognate, I'm not sure if they have the ability to do what they want vs a state school.

My initial thought is to just bring my son to school 15 minutes "late" each morning so he won't even know what he is missing - of course if there is an awards day or something I don't know how this would be handled. The headmistress really gave me the indiciation that in circumstances like this, she wouldn't know what to do either- yet I think the school has a duty to come up with some accomodations doesn't it? In regards to being "late" it was communicated to me that my son might in future be marked "late" which would interfere with the attendance policy.. don't know what to do about this.

Finally, on top of it all, my son is listed as gifted for reading and math. This past school year I was just thrilled because the wonderful year 2 teacher met with him once a week and encouraged him. I thought that just maybe,. if the school is going to give support here, that they do so when my son would otherwise be in RE or collective worship as he might not feel excluded specifically. I get the feeling that while that one teacher was thrilled to offer up her time, the headmistress really doesn't want to ask her staff to sit with my son and would rather pressure us to confirm or leave. We are not the type to just bow under pressure-

SO! With all of the above in mind- any tips? What has your experience dealing with withdrawal been like? How to deal with a headmistress or ensure your rights are enforced?

Thanks so much.

Comeinto, so you see the OP would have the same problem if she moved into a state school???

The problem is not specific to the school she's at. It's a dilemma she would face in ANY school.

Our school is one of the few non-church state primaries locally, and so there a relatively large proportion of Jehovah's Witnesses choose to send their children there (maybe 5 or 6 families with kids through the school). Obviously they don't take part in any acts of collective worship, or in the school play. In the week of Winter term, when it all goes Christmastastic they take the week out and as far as I understand it most of them go to Center Parcs. : ).

All of the Hindu, Jewish, Muslim and atheists kids just take part in it all, nativity and Santa included.

Is it possible to play a full part in the life of the school without doing all that stuff?Since your perspective is really one of cultural preference rather than religious imperative, it is unfair on your child to exclude him from the community of the school that you have chosen. I tend to think that if you are part of a community, you need to be prepared to operate broadly within its codes. You should look at different schooling options, perhaps.

But it is the LAW to have a Christian act of worship so I'm not really sure how it helps your case to say that not all schools do it.

Many schools do which is a problem for people with the beleifs of the OP.

Schools are also in an impossible position - the ones that do it risk alienating people like the OP and the ones that don't are breaking the law.

So, why is it that instead of questioning the law, so many of you are questioning the OP?

Up to a point, whendidyoulast. She would have the same problem of her child potentially being out on a limb if withdrawn, but being in a state school would have the advantage of putting the weight of the law behind her request to withdraw her child (about which, to judge from the initial post, the school has so far not been entirely dismissive but neither has it made a wholehearted commitment to comply).

Anyway, I've had enough of this discussion and note that the OP has now left.

I do question the law. I disagree with it.

But it is not the same. A faith school is not the same as a daily act of collective worship. It is more than that. And opting out of assembly is likely scratching at the surface.

'Is it possible to play a full part in the life of the school without doing all that stuff?'

Exactly. That's the problem.

'Since your perspective is really one of cultural preference rather than religious imperative, it is unfair on your child to exclude him from the community of the school that you have chosen. I tend to think that if you are part of a community, you need to be prepared to operate broadly within its codes. You should look at different schooling options, perhaps.'

But this is what's staggering. Why should it be the assumption that the parents need to look elsewhere rather than the schools need to accommodate the relgiigous beliefs of theri rpupils and lack of them?

Would you be so accepting of a school that didn't offer a vegeterian option and said you have to go to a different school for that?

Why is there an acceptance that the schools are in the right here over and above the parents (even when the schools themselves know that a collective act of worship is inappropriate and are therefore forced to break the law).

This is why I don't take my own kids out of assembly.

Because they and I would face some very unenlightend attitudes and a lack of respect. And also my kids would be sitting doing nothing for 30 minute twice a week and as you say for a week before Christmas.

And they'd miss out on other important aspects of the school community.

But that can't be right can it?

That you have to put up with it or home educate?

An independent religious school does not need to accomodate other religions or none.

State schools should, certainly.

I'm going to post this again so you can have another chance to actually read what it says:

'Collective worship is when pupils of all faiths and none come together to reflect - it should not be confused with corporate worship when everyone is of the same belief.'

That is, ALL FAITHS AND NONE. Reflecting together.

That leaves room for people with a wide range of different belief systems. It is not imposing religious belief or practice on anyone.

It IS the same in that she would also have to withdraw her kids from assembly in most state schools.

Merylstrop notes that the Jehovah's Witness kids at her kids' non faith state school have to take a week out before Christmas (and go to Center Parcs instead

She's chosen a private school with a strong Christian ethos
The headteacher is trying to find solutions
She's still not happy
There are other options, where the faith element may be lower key or where they are better able to accommodate her preferences (such as the one my kids attend)

Choosing a Christian school, with a strong and clear religious ethos, for your Jewish, atheist child and then complaining that there is too much religion really seems rather bloody minded. This sort of school tends place their Christian ethos at the heart of everything they do and trying to remove the religious element is going to be quite a complex task.

At least choose a non-religious, state school where the school pays lip service to the need for a daily act of worship, where the staff are likely to be more accepting of atheists (and even be atheists themselves), where there is likely to be a higher number of non-Christian children attending the school and where religion can avoided with much less difficulty and heartache for the child as well as the school.

The OP is kidding herself if she thinks removing her child from RE and assembly will mean they are not exposed to an overtly Christian experience. That is my point, and why it is relevant that the OP has chosen a faith school rather than a non faith school, where it is at least more likely that the Christian references will be more limited.

But, OhBugger, that is followed by ' this shall be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character' (1988 Education Act).'

Some schools 'interpret' the requirement very liberally but many do use it for Christian worship.

Also 'collective worship' is not the same as 'reflection'.

I do not want my kids to worship anything.

When did you last...I was being facetious, obviously, about Center Parcs, though some families do find it a good opportunity to have a cheap holiday. They certainly do not have to absent themselves from school, and other activities are provided. It would, however be quite hard to find a place where you wouldn't hear the others practising.

OP how do you feel about Christmas discos, Christmas fayres etc, all that stuff? That is the stuff that is really hard to avoid.

But I also stand about what I say about participating in - or at least tolerating - the culture of the community you choose to be a part of. I don't think that is at odds with free thinking and/or maintaining your own cultural and religious identity.

For the record, I don't think there should be collective worship in state funded schools.

More red herrings.

I had the same problem at my state and non faith school.

And the OP would have the same problem at many state and non faith schools today.

She is NOT complaining about any other aspects of the faith teaching at the school just assemblies. And she would have that problem elsewhere.

Some of you need to accept what the problme is here instead rather bizarrely of trying to find ways to make out that this is somehow the problem of the OP.

Is it the fault of the Jehovah's witness parents at Merylstrops' school that they have to take their kids out of school for the week before Christmas too?

Sheesh!

I don't have a problem with Christmas fayres etc.

I do have a problem with Christmas assemblies where kids are actively taught stuff I do not agree with and find quite offensive.

Likewise Easter. Don't mind my kids having eggs. DO mind them being told that this Pagan festival is actually about Christ being reborn.

Have you experience of a faith school?

you might find this thread from 2008, informative (and sometimes quite funny) www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/557404-collective-worship-in-primary-school-what-is-it-exactly asked curious "humanist/atheist" Dragonbutter, "the term 'worship' is worrying me." RavenAK set her mind at rest, "Everyone troops in to strains of 'Search for the hero inside yourself'. Head or suitable delegate waffles on for a bit about being nice to each other. Brief video of children in developing country foraging on refuse dump. Head/delegate explains that we are now collecting old mobile phones to help dump-foraging children. Football etc results. Bollocking about not keying the staff cars. If time, lame rendition of 'All Things Bright & Beautiful'." "Collective worship at school was probably what turned me into an atheist" reassured Fairymum.

It's assemblies that are particularly problematic also because there's no discussion or opportunity to challenge. THey are precisely about conforming to collective values which is a problem if you don't share those Christian values which is the requirmenet.

'Have you experience of a faith school?

I went to school in a state, non faith school. I've got experience as a teacher in all sorts of schools.

But that's irrelevant it is the law to have a Christian act of daily worship.

there's no discussion or opportunity to challenge.

Again, this does not reflect the general experience.

Our school has a lot of discussion in assemblies, and they are often based on themes or issues raised and put together by the children themselves.

I'm guessing that's not secondary school, Oh Bugger. You'd have to be a pretty strong person to stand up in front of several hundred kids and say, 'Actually I don't believe in God or that I'm a sinner' - I have never seen that.

It IS the case that some schools are more sensitive than others. But there are still many, many schools where assemblies follow the Christian act of worship to the letter.

It is entirely relevant to this OP. The OP's objections do go beyond assemblies.

You are arguing against a collective a t of Christian worship in a state school. I completely agree with you.

But that's not the OP.

'I seriously don't know what all of the objectors here would do in the reverse situation where you sent your child to an American state school since RE is not taught and there are no assemblies... would you object?'
We're, no, I'd probably take my child along to church on a Sunday and teach them what I needed to there and at home.
Your taking your child to a faith school because its excellent but expecting them to change everything for you because you are atheist reeks of hypocrisy. If you don't like what they teach, change schools. Entitled much?