Private school at primary or secondary - which is the better option?

[Reastie]

I live where there's the 11+ in an affluent area where essentially secondary modern/comprehensive schools are mainly people who fail their 11+ and their parents can't afford private education and are generally rough and not very high expectations/behaviour (I work in education in the area at all types of secondary schools so know this).

DD is only tiny but I'm looking at preschools for her and thinking about primary schools (ideally she'd go to the same preschool as primary).

DH and I have accepted that if she fails her 11+ we will pay for her to go to private school. We will be in a better financial position then to pay for it as we will have paid off the mortgage on a second property and have a monthly rental income (we sound better off than we are in that sentence!).

However, talking to people today and looking around various primary/pre schools I'm now wondering whether we aren't better off paying for private school for her primary on the basis they will give her more individualised care and stretch her better so that she will be more likely to pass the 11+ and so go on to grammar school at secondary (and so we spend money now to save money later IYKWIM). There's always the possibility DD still won't pass it but at least we will have done all we can for her to get there and so I'll feel happy that I've done what I can.

I'm not a pushy parent (although realise I probably sound like I am!) I just want the best for DD and want her to flourish as much as possible.

So, are there any thoughts on paying for private primary on the foundations hopefully it will help get DD through the 11+ and give her more of an individualised education? Is this common? It is worthwhile?

Eh no, I think an A is an A and any children getting an A* at Alevel has worked bloody hard and is obviously bright. I don't raise my eyebrows at state educated kids getting fantastic results. Why would I? I teach Y6 and see many very bright kids.

And can you clarify what you mean by well established, please? Do you mean public school or every independent day school has hasn't appeared in the last 5yrs? What about poor kids in grammar areas attending grammar schools and getting A*s? Are their results worth about 3/4 that of the comp kid's results?

Erm who mentioned posters?

Bright kids which are to be found in every school up and down the land are bright regardless.There is a difference between ability and attainment.You may be bright but it doesn't follow you'll get an A*.It is widely reported how bright kids are under performing in state schools.

Getting an A* is easier in tiny classes,with better resources,better discipline etc,etc.Less clever pupils can be tutored though the 11+ so it follows that the same can happen with A levels.Basically a bright pupil in a large class with crap resources,low discipline,poor teaching etc will have made more of an achievement than a pupil from Eton.

Why do you keep referring to schools like Eton? That is a tiny % of the overall pupils educated privately.
And I take issue with your suggestion that teaching in state schools is poor.
There is a big problem with attainment in some schools but the answer is to put measures in place to raise that attainment not to insist that all children be subjected to such difficult conditions.

And I'd bet my house on the fact that the bright kid who achieves well despite his surroundings has a fantastically supportive family at home. That is often the crucial factor in how well a child does.

Also that the child has not had is education blighted by bad influences within the classroom. That bad behaviour has not been allowed to disrupt the teaching.

Certainly didn't say all teaching in state is poor.

Love the pretence that non Eton private schools shouldn't be regarded as elitest or an advantage.

Ok if it makes you feel better we'll all pretend.

Mr Buttercutt. Are Grammar Schools elitest then?

They don't exclude by money.

Well they aren't all elitist but of course they offer an advantage otherwise nobody would bother. What that advantage is though, varies tremendously from school to school and isn't always what you would think. There was a school near where we used to live in Cheshire who specialised in high functioning autism and severe dyslexia. Parents chose it because the melting pot of the state sector didn't cater for their child's specific needs.

But a large inner city day school really is nothing like schools such as EC though I suppose it suits your argument to lump them together.

G&T doesn't mean much at some state schools as a set % at the top are called that. So if everyone has an IQ of 80 and you have 110 then you might be G&T at some comps.

PLenty of children (half Oxbridge) do okay at good comps but clearly a lot of us who made more sensible career choices than Mr B or we earn more because we have a higher IQ think paying fees is worth doing and are happy with the results - which for me is about a huge range of things, not just exam results.

Plenty of children have all kinds of advantages. I don't think schooling is any different. If you feed children well or love or listen to them they are advantaged too., If you married a bright woman or a man with healthy genes you advantage your children etc etc

Ah so it's ok if you're poor but bright but not if you're poor and less bright?

Said inner city day would still give advantages as I'm sure people don't like shelling out 11k for the hell of it.

Agree with you re G and T it's a crock Xenia although however much you hate the idea bright kids are in every school up and down the land regardless of label.

Re career,money isn't everything.Have you still not learnt that.

Of course it would but not a lot more than many good grammars.

Oh and you are also jumping to the conclusion that people pay to make sure their kids come out ahead of the local state option. See my earlier post as to why that isn't always the case. And certainly in our case, I paid to avoid the high academic environment for my very bright DD. She genuinely is way ahead.DS1is what I would call very bright but DD1 is on a different scale. I knew a high achieving state school would encourage her into as many academic GCSEs as possible. I want her to go to a secondary where they value music and art as highly as maths.

I went to a state comprehensive and all our top set where pushed into doing the more academic olevels and Alevels. Nobody ever suggested doing drama instead of a second language or a second science. You were then expected to apply for an academic degree at university without considering a poly or anything more creative. If she wants to be a mathematician then fine but I want it all to be presented equally and for her to make the choice.

Oh and Xenia earning power isn't jut down to IQ,sadly many people who earn a lot earn it because of contacts and poor social mobility.

Mrbuttercat nowhere will you find myself or any of my colleagues saying that pupils at top independent schools don't have an advantage!

However, that most certainly does not mean that those pupils are inferior to their state schooled counterparts and that they obtain their stellar grades solely because of their advantage.

The reality is that many of the top private schools are absurdly selective. The pupils there are uber bright. And, like it or lump it, they have spent several years being academically challenged and enabled.

That is the unpalatable truth. And I say that as someone from a comp who went to Oxbridge myself and am frimly committed to widening access.

Mr Buttercutt. Some people on this website believe that Grammar Schools are equally or more elitist than many private schools, and has Mary katherine has said some state schools can have more prosperous families there than many private schools. Is it not a parents duty to give their child every advantage they can, whether though selective state education or private education, if their child needs it and if the parents can provide those opportunities they must.

MrButtercat - if G&T is such a crock then why did you earlier boast about your kids being G&T?

Can I just add that I, to, am in favour of widening access. Just because I pay for my kids does not mean I don't believe that all kids deserve a good education and opportunity to access Oxbridge and other great universities.

MrButtercat - you probably find that grammar schools are also stacked with MC children who had the benefit of being tutored by educated parents or expensive tutors, to pass the entrance exam.

Xenia,

I suspect that my IQ is, or at least has been, higher than yours - as are my educational qualificatoons, as I have pointed out many times.

I work in a socially useful job (rather than the financially more rewarding but very capitalist job I held in the past) because that is the value set I have - courtesy of my parents, my education, my upbringing and my own long-considered views.

In other words I have used my very high IQ to look wider than my own, narrow advantage and the narrow advantage of my children to consider the good of others, and (if you like, though I would not be so grandiose) of society as a whole.

High IQ does not = a particular set of values. It means, perhaps, the ability to think very carefully about one's values, to weigh them against opposing views, and to choose one's own course. It is no surprise, then, that very intelligent people make a very wide set of choices about their careers, their children - which is different from your assertion that high IQ means that people possessing that IQ choose a very particular and proscibed path...

qualifications, of course.

Teacher these are for you.

I often wonder if Xenia is actually that woman from The Apprentice who refuses to let her children associate with other children possessing certain names...some of her views and the inexplicable and sad obsession with income are certainly as obnoxious (but apparently one only believes this because one feels inferior!)

Teacher - you chucked in a highly paid job to be a teacher of kids which carries like 14 weeks holiday. From comments you made elsewhere your your husband is doing quite well so I suspect that you still enjoy a comfortable lifestyle.

If you went off to Africa to work in an orphanage then I can understand your feelings of moral superiority but come on.

Mr Buttercat - IMHO an A* is worth nothing these days as too many people get it. I knew many people who were supposed to have gotten that in a language but were very far from fluent in it!!!

Education is not just about getting the right grades. I'd like kids to be confident. I'd like them to speak other languages fluently. I'd like them to not completely be intimidated by the prospect of Oxbridge, for example. Many state schools do a mediocre job in all the above.