Private school at primary or secondary - which is the better option?

[Reastie]

I live where there's the 11+ in an affluent area where essentially secondary modern/comprehensive schools are mainly people who fail their 11+ and their parents can't afford private education and are generally rough and not very high expectations/behaviour (I work in education in the area at all types of secondary schools so know this).

DD is only tiny but I'm looking at preschools for her and thinking about primary schools (ideally she'd go to the same preschool as primary).

DH and I have accepted that if she fails her 11+ we will pay for her to go to private school. We will be in a better financial position then to pay for it as we will have paid off the mortgage on a second property and have a monthly rental income (we sound better off than we are in that sentence!).

However, talking to people today and looking around various primary/pre schools I'm now wondering whether we aren't better off paying for private school for her primary on the basis they will give her more individualised care and stretch her better so that she will be more likely to pass the 11+ and so go on to grammar school at secondary (and so we spend money now to save money later IYKWIM). There's always the possibility DD still won't pass it but at least we will have done all we can for her to get there and so I'll feel happy that I've done what I can.

I'm not a pushy parent (although realise I probably sound like I am!) I just want the best for DD and want her to flourish as much as possible.

So, are there any thoughts on paying for private primary on the foundations hopefully it will help get DD through the 11+ and give her more of an individualised education? Is this common? It is worthwhile?

Rob99.There is a difference between a private day school and a full on boarding school that charge 33k pa. If you know your history you will realise that many of the best private schools in greater Manchester were state schools or direct grant schools that were forced to go private because of stupid politcal dogma in the 1970s and most of these schools would love to become state schools again if the could retain academic selection and then they could benefit the local communties where they are located and in areas like salford, academic schools are needed more than in areas of relative affluence. right kids need to be in schools where inteligence and hard work are not frowned upon which is not possible in those areas. Rob if you really want to improve education for kids from these areas you should be of the belief that kids in these areas need to be seperated from the bad influences and problems or at least at the schools they attend.

BRIGHT KIDS NEED TO BE IN SCHOOLS WHERE INTELIGENCE IS NOT FROWNED UPON.

Oh and when we were paying school fees in Cheshire they were actually 6k a year. School fees vary enormously and 33k pa is more like the fees paid to board at a well known public school. Which is a completely different experience altogether.

Yes indeed! Schools like Manchester Grammar have a bling admission policy whereby if you reach a certain level on the test you get a place irrespective of whether your parents can afford the fees or not. Personally, I would be happy for our school to do the same as, despite what many of the abolitionists believe, most parents do not pay to be elitist and avoid poor children. They often pay to avoid disruption. Bright kids from poor backgrounds should be given that same opportunity. I'd be more than happy for a old % of my fees to be put towards assisted places up to and inc 100% bursaries if required.

Lol at that typo!
Blind admission policy! Fallowfield certainly wasn't bling the last time I drove through it!

Mary Katherine. The fees sound about what it cost for my niece and newphew when they were at prep school. It was a good investment because it meant they both got in to Grammar schools and niece has just finished first year at RG University reading French with business studies newphew just finished G.C.S.E "s

One of the first things BLAIR did when he came in to power in 1997 was to abolish the Assisted places scheme which was total vandalism and was done just for politcal dogma rather than for reason to improve anything.

"I don't expect a kid in a deprived area to have parents who can afford riding lessons but at least they will get a similar education to all other kids."

rob99

You are completely and utterly deluded, if you think that kids will have the exact same education, if they go to the same school. You can put kids into one school, and one kid's parents read to him/her at home while the only book to be found at the other kid's place may be a phone book.

You may laugh about extracurricular activities, but if children do a lot of different things that are not all the same, it broadens their horizon - I'm sure you can explain that more scientifically using neurons and networks in a growing child's brain, but anyway... And since you are soooo against it - with horse riding you learn superb balance, hand/eye coordination - and more importantly, the ability to communicate with a creature that doesn't speak your language, and could potentially kill you if you really piss it off. (There are horses who are freakin' good at teaching kids manners!)

Let us put it this way: any kid I have will at the very least learn one foreign language outside of school, and have travelled significantly before even leaving school. DH has a PhD in a scientific subject, and will pass on some of his knowledge, too. Music and sport would also feature highly on the list. The kid will live in a smoke-free home, eating healthy meals. So even if no private school existed, the kid in my house would still be better off than one in a household with chain-smoking parents who eat fast food, and put no value on foreign languages, scientific knowledge, music and sport.

Whether you believe it or not - at the places I have worked for, what you did outside of school was mightily important.

Yes around £10k a year is or has been the fees for most of the best academic prep day schools in the country.Habs girls juniors Herts £11k a year.

And don't think that 11k buys you a good education.

Have seen the standard at 2 very popular private schools friend's kids go to and was utterly shocked at the standard(and grades)ie not a patch on that given and achieved by my own dc at a lowly satisfactory state school. Gorgeous uniforms though.

Utterly shocked that parents can legally get ripped off in his way.

Have different friends who teach in the private sector and both say they'd only pay for secondary- primarily for the uni connections(which stinks and I hope gets dealt with eventually).

It varies from year to year but typically about 25-30% of kids at DD's private school go on to Oxbridge. So, hopefully it won't get sorted, at least not until DS has gotten in

It is always interesting, hearing about private schools that:

A.) they are ceap anyway and get worse grades than local comp
B.) it is unfair they exist as they give chidren an unfair advantage

Always makes me

I mweant the schools about £10k etc (primary levelm junior part) which are among the best schools of all sectors state and private boarding and day in the country for A levels and university entrance. I don't think anyone is suggesting schools like Haberdashers and North London c where my daughters went are a rip off and bad schools.

There are some good selective state schools too but most parents who pay for schools like Manchester Grammar etc tend to be pretty happy with what they get.

MrButtercat - the parents probably don't think thT they are being "legally ripped off". Some parents deliberately look for private schools that aren't academically pushy.

MrButtercat, we had friend who send their DDs to Withington girls school in Manchester. I'm not sure they'd agree with your statement that 11k doesn't buy you a good education. I seem to remember withington charged about 9 or 10k a year all the way up to Alevels.
You do realise its one of the top schools in the country results wise? And by top I mean consistently top 2 or 3 every year.

So if it is academic results you want you certainly can buy that for 11k. Though many parents pay to avoid that sort of thing and that's no less valid. There are also parents who choose to pay because their child has SENs which are simply not being met in the state sector.

Marykatharine. You quite right about the fees being signifacantly lower in the north than the south. Private Schools can also benefit kids who for various reasons are not a good fit for state schools and that in most cases is not because their believe themselves to be superior but in many cases, some kids who are privately educated could believe themselves to be inferior, and may get eaten alive in a state school. On another thread there is a teacher who is leaving education despite liking the job because she cant deal with 5% of kids. If the 5% were seperated rather than managed i am sure a lot of these schools would achieve much better resul, not just academically but also giving their pupils more confidence in their future lives.

Only caveat to that is you cannot buy a place at an academic school with 5 applicants per place if your child is not very bright. The school chooses the pupils at the better schools not vice versa. Most who apply don't get in which in a sense makes them good.

Xenia. Some of the best private schools are non selective and they can do a brilliant job with kids who have been "DESTROYED" by state education not just academically but though their confidence being destroyed and being terribly bullied for being slighty different within many comprehensives. In many circumstances these kids are singled out, and badly bullied. A lot of these state schools like to say this type of bullying does not exist but it does. I have known this to happen and the school will seek to blame the bullied pupil for not "BEING NORMAL" I.E not fitting in with the rest.

Yes beatback

My Ds was told off for not staying out of the bully's way. He got punched in the face whilst minding his own business!

That caused me sleepless nights!

Dyslexic AND bullied AND did not like football ( ie fit in)

At the private school he has joined chess club and RSPCA club with like minded boys, and any violence or aggression is dealt with swiftly.

He is a different boy now.

It is not always about grades, or status

Forma and you're proud of that?

Already is on the turn.Oxbridge already hunting state schools for bright pupils who genuinely deserve their places.

MrButtercat, why the at the suggestion that not everyone pays for the standard reason of pushy academics? My local state primary was highly over subscribed. Very, very high SATS results. I chose to pay for school in order to avoid that. My DD1 is academically gifted and I wanted an environment where they valued other areas of learning as much as literacy and numeracy. I am a primary teacher myself and I knew they would take her and push her and push her. I did not want that. I wanted her to thrive at a slower pace and be stretched sideways as it were.

That foundation has meant that now, at almost 8, she is thriving and enjoying the academic side of things without being 'burned out' by it in a way that I have seen many times with very able children.

Oh and what a ridiculous suggestion; that privately educated children get places at Oxbridge they don't deserve.
The vast majority are just ordinary teenagers catching the bus each night with everyone else. Getting home and trying to eat, study and cope with all the distractions of family life just like teenagers at the local comp. Certainly their parents are often financially a bit better off that the neighbour at the comp-but of course, not always otherwise they wouldn't be neighbours, would they?

It was in ref to the poster boasting the 30% Oxbridge places.

And sorry not all private primaries are worth a penny in fees.I think some parents foolishly think that if you throw money at a child it buys a good education,it doesn't.Private doesn't mean a good education by default.Far from it.As I say I was staggered at what I saw and heard from friends.

As I said from what I've heard private is only worth it at secondary level and one big reason is contacts.The fact is a fraction of children go to private secondary and have the maj of Oxbridge places.Utterly wrong and thankfully finally beginning to be dealt with.

MrButtercat - gone are the days when a wink and a nod from your house master is enough to get a not so bright student into Oxbridge. So I'm interested in knowing what 'contacts' my £15k pa is supposed to be buying me.

Ok
Firstly, you say only worth it at secondary. I think you mean in terms of ensuring the best Alevels? I am not paying for that. I'm quite sure they'd ome out with similar results in state around here. As I said, I paid at primary to avoid a super pushy high achieving school. In prep, they were in a small class (not too small-16/18) and it was all about the experience. Vast grounds and a dedicated gardening lesson each week. Kids all grew their own flowers and veg etc. all that sort of stuff. Also dedicated sport and music. They started learning an instrument in small groups of 3 from Y1.

The other thing you mention is contacts. That's bollocks unless your child attends one of a handful of public schools. Those schools are a world away from your standard independent day school both in fees and attitude.

And you talk about some private primaries being rubbish. Of course they are! Some state primaries are rubbish too and hundreds of kids have no option there and neither are those parents getting value for money. You say it as if parents like me blindly pay without even visiting or checking up of the ethos or results or contentment of the current pupils which is ridiculous. Sure, you'll always get the odd parent who pays for elitism or stuffy uniform but they really are the exception.