Private school at primary or secondary - which is the better option?

[Reastie]

I live where there's the 11+ in an affluent area where essentially secondary modern/comprehensive schools are mainly people who fail their 11+ and their parents can't afford private education and are generally rough and not very high expectations/behaviour (I work in education in the area at all types of secondary schools so know this).

DD is only tiny but I'm looking at preschools for her and thinking about primary schools (ideally she'd go to the same preschool as primary).

DH and I have accepted that if she fails her 11+ we will pay for her to go to private school. We will be in a better financial position then to pay for it as we will have paid off the mortgage on a second property and have a monthly rental income (we sound better off than we are in that sentence!).

However, talking to people today and looking around various primary/pre schools I'm now wondering whether we aren't better off paying for private school for her primary on the basis they will give her more individualised care and stretch her better so that she will be more likely to pass the 11+ and so go on to grammar school at secondary (and so we spend money now to save money later IYKWIM). There's always the possibility DD still won't pass it but at least we will have done all we can for her to get there and so I'll feel happy that I've done what I can.

I'm not a pushy parent (although realise I probably sound like I am!) I just want the best for DD and want her to flourish as much as possible.

So, are there any thoughts on paying for private primary on the foundations hopefully it will help get DD through the 11+ and give her more of an individualised education? Is this common? It is worthwhile?

Nobody is saying it's just a wink and a nod but there are clearly benefits to being privately educated when applying to uni,the stats speak for themselves which is why Oxbridge are now scouting and encouraging comps.

Lets be honest a child with stellar grades deserves a place waaaay more if he got them from an inner city comp than a child at one of the better feeder private secondaries.Thankfully unis are waking up to this.

What about an inner city comp compared to the nice leafy comp? As mentioned earlier on the thread, this is where the real division lies.

No it doesn't.

Latest concerns from Ofsted are that the inner city schools are thriving and poorer children in the leafy suburbs and coastal towns are being left behind.

And sorry the real division on top of this are the very bright children from both who lose Oxbridge places to children from feeder private schools who are given advantages to get their stellar grades.

MrButtercat - First you talk about 'contacts' and now it's 'advantages'. You seem to have walked back your contacts comments so would you care to expand on what advantages my DS is supposed to enjoy?

Mr Buttercat - could it just be that a lot of the private schools actually get a lot of the top grades at A-levels (much, much more than state schools), and hence the pool of prospective students that meet the pre-requisites is bigger in a private school???

At Sixth Form, private school intake goes up - I believe 12% of Sixth Form pupils go private. The top private schools have a high criteria for getting in at Sixth Form - so the ones moving in from state schools are inevitably going to be the brighter ones. So there's a bit of a brain drain going on. If they then get the best grades, what should Oxbridge do?

A few months ago, we already had one of these debates on here, and I worked out using some of the data available, that statistically, Oxbridge is more likely to take in a state school student than private school students once both of them have the same grades.

But as I said - it is just that the pool of private school students having those grades is much larger, and hence, to someone from outside it looks like they still prefer private school kids.

Basically, if private school students at Sixth Form take in 12% of the population, but get a much higher proportion of the A-grades at A-levels relative to state school students, then it is natural that Oxbridge would take in more than 12% of students from private schools, isn't it?

Let me know if you don't get the maths...

And actually it's something like 18% of pupils post-16 are at private schools...makes the stats look a little different.

Latest concerns from Ofsted are that the inner city schools are thriving and poorer children in the leafy suburbs and coastal towns are being left behind.

That's not true - you are referring to inner city schools versus schools in places like Hull. Not leafy AND wealthy suburbs...

Last year, I think it was the Sutton Trust that published a report showing where the privately educated kids came from. Not surprisingly, Eton and it's fellow public schools filled most of the top 10 slots.

So when people rant about private schools and Oxbridge then they should be aware that a pupil from an 'ordinary' private school doesn't have an advantage over some grammar school kid.

Sorry, I disagree that Ofsted are worried about kids from leafy affluent comps. IME as a teacher, these kids do very well indeed. As do kids from grammar schools.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'feeder schools'! Do you mean schools like Etonian/Harrow/Rugby? If so you do know that these schools are not representative of the vast majority of privately educated kids, don't you?

So contacts and advantages. Well not sure we've made any contacts which would help us in the jobs market or with our uni applications when/if the time comes. Lots of friends though! As for advantages;hell yes!! I gave them the advantage of not having to share their teacher with 29 other kids. I also gave them the advantage of not having the national curriculum forced on them and spending a disproportionate amount of time doing literacy and numeracy. Are they the advantages you're talking about?

Mary well you disagree with Gove and Ofsted stats reported last month.Stats show the inner city schools are doing well,not so coastal towns and suburbs as regards poorer kids(the true test of teaching).

Brain drain to private schools pmsl there are G andT and bright kids in every school in the country,only a fraction can afford private so the huge majority don't go however the maj of Oxbridge places are privately educated- you do the maths.

"Brain drain"

Hmmm thinking of my 3 bright kids(2 G and T) guess I'll just go and rob a bank to get the 36k I need to facilitate the brain drain- simples!

Tas is, to some extrent correct.

I'm involved in the widening access prog for Oxbridge and one of the issues that comes up time and time again, is that whilest it is highly important to encourage as many applicants as possible from as many backgrounds as possible, the reality is that many many fabulous candidates come from privilege and the departments don't want to lose those able students just to make the stats look more appealing!

Why do some people not accept that most private schools are not ETON HARROW/WYCOMBE ABBEY, and are full of parents who are mostly middle income and have never thought about connections in choosing private education.The reason in many circumstances they have made major sacrifices to pay fees are because the state system in their eyes is incapable of maximising their childs potential. They did not pay private school fees for mixing with the parents or for swanky parties.

I think you should have a point system with points deducted if you go to a top private school.If you've had classes of 15,advantages etc it is waaaay easier to get stellar grades.

Kind of scary those like word still aren't acknowledging that.Guess it's all gov spin saying they are rectifying the problem.

Beatback so don't pay the fees then,suck up the local comp like everybody else if there are no advantages. No thought not.

MrButtercat - my DS has about 2 hours worth of assignments each weekday evening. Every weekend he has to revise what he has covered during the week because there is a Monday morning test. Each academic year there are two end of term exams and an end of year exam. His progress is constantly being monitored and reported so problems are quickly picked up on. That is why 30% go onto Oxbridge as opposed to 'contacts' and nods and winks.

Now, there is nothing to stop a state school following such a rigorous regime.

beatback - speak for yourself. I pay the fees because I don't want to mix with people like MrButtercat

Homework has long been seen as pointless, and err state schools do pick up on problems. No sorry I think you'll find certain schools do enable pupils to get into top unis by contacts alongside certain advantages which money brings such as class size.And no state schools can't simply do this.

The fact is the state funding in London is sky high compared to other areas(probably why their inner city schools are doing so well).

Nice Forma

Learning by rote has also been proved to be pointless.

I wasn't talking about poor kids in costal towns. I was talking about comps in affluent suburbs in places like Surrey and Cheshire. I'm also well aware that there's some real innovation going on in inner city schools. I know because I taught in them for years. Ofsted deemed me outstanding in those very schools so they and me must have been doing something right!

And of course there are bright, even exceptionally bright kids in state schools. I think Word's point is that for whatever reason they are not making the grade. Those that do get a place. I certainly don't believe that an applicant with excellent grades would fail to get a place because they were state educated. For whatever reason more state educated kids fail to reach their potential than privately educated kids. This certainly needs addressing. It does appear to be specific to comps though as you don't get the same issues at grammar school at least to the same extent.

Coastal

But do you not think an A from a comp must by default be worth more than an A from a well established private school? I certainly do.

MrButtercat - I love how you group all homework assignments into the same 'let's make a poster' type. For a person with such strong views about private schools you don't seem to know much about them.

Anyway, you mentioned that you have two G&T kids. How is that possible? I mean, they go to state school where they get an inferior education .

I love how some posters go on about how rich kids have an advantage and then go on about how clever their state school DCs are. Going to a state school hasn't exactly set then back.

Why by default?