11+ being scrapped

[musu]

At one school in Essex here

Interesting development which follows on from Bucks CC overhauling their 11+ and trying to make it tutor proof (although everyone I know in Bucks is still employing tutors).

If I remember correctly, DD's entrance exams to two private schools included verbal reasoning. They also included math, english and an interview, but they covered what was needed for a grammar application too IYSWIM.

Cranbrook's catchment used to follow parish boundaries and has now changed to be approx 8.5 km. You can see a map here. This is not a densely populated urban area so the catchment is lot wider in distance than Tunbridge Wells Girls Grammar, but it is still, in population terms, quite tight. Boarders at Cranbrook are not subject to catchment.

'Private schools prepare their pupils for whatever options their customers (parents) require.'

Yet consumers of State education are not prepared AT ALL for the State options that may exist, in England anyway.

In Belfast where large numbers of pupils go to GS, pupils are at least given a fighting chance with their primary schools holding extra classes etc. (not all primary schools do this, but many do). Still doesn't stop the Private Tuition market from flourishing there too though.

I'm not sure you can be a customer wrt State education, can you? I suppose if vouchers were introduced then you could.

I think that the situation where state primaries in GS areas do not prepare their pupils for the Kent test or other versions of the 11+ is ridiculous.

What's just as ridiculous Bonsoir is that where parents have an element of choice over which Secondary (or in my case Middle School) to send their children to, Headteachers won't/can't advise as to which school they think would best suit DC.

I think HTs in state schools have a lot to do and cannot include as much of a personal/pastoral element as HTs in prep schools. But it is a pity not to be able to ask the person who has been responsible for a child's schooling for several years for their opinion.

I cannot even go and see the HT in my DD's school to ask about her progress after 6 years!

seeker
"But the grammar school system results in a minority of children doing only marginally better in exam terms than they would in a comprehensive school, while leaving the majority with what is often a worse education."

Yep - see your point, know where you're coming from and all that. But getting rid of grammar schools won't solve the issues you perceive will it, when we don't have a country-wide comprehensive system, do we?

This is what I don't get...instead of the anti-grammar lobby focussing on getting rid of the 150 odd grammar schools, in their dream of making a good education accessible to all and selective education a thing of the past, if they believe that the comprehensive system is the answer, then why isn't their battle cry of "What do we want? Comprehensives. When do we want them? NOW!" louder than their cry of "Grammar, grammar, grammar, OUT!OUT! OUT!" ?
Get rid of the grammars by all means but are you going to left with a better education system and more opportunities for everyone? Will you have more comprehensives? I know where I'd be putting my energies if I felt that strongly

Sorry pickled I don't have links to any online documents re. outreach. But seeker might be interested in this speech given by Nick Gibb to the GSHA in 2012, particularly the paragraph about performance of FSMers in a grammar school setting:

www.gov.uk/government/speeches/nick-gibb-to-the-grammar-school-heads-association

why isn't their battle cry of "What do we want? Comprehensives. When do we want them? NOW!" louder than their cry of "Grammar, grammar, grammar, OUT!OUT! OUT!" ?

I've always assumed that the former is directly implied by the latter though! But you may be right that framing the argument as calling for a positive rather than decrying a negative would sound better.

TOSN
" But you may be right that framing the argument as calling for a positive rather than decrying a negative would sound better."

Quite. And even if you did have comps all across the land, offering "equal" opportuntities to every child, would it be the case that all comps are equal, except than some comps are more equal than others?

"Ah, but you won't have a child seen to be thrown on the scrapheap at the age of 10/11" I hear some cry...

I'd rather see every child being given a good education, rather than the postcode selection process many of us face. Getting rid of the selective education process isn't necessarily the answer, is it?

It would certainly be the case that some comprehensives were viewed as more desirable than others, inevitably. Just as some streets, or postcodes, are viewed as such. I think it would be a start.

MomofTomStubby

I know the thread has moved on a lot but didn't want to seem like I was ignoring your question.

I do think that the cost of travel can be a barrier for some people, it would make a huge impact on us. I just don't think its the biggest barrier by far. Firstly, as I said before its knowledge about the system for parents, consultation and outreach for all communities not just those selected or targeted. The only children in our town to access grammar schools have done so solely by parental input and them doing all the leg work. That is fine if the parents know about the choices in the first place.
I know a little girl who is as bright as a button and has been doing y6 maths since y3 and her English is above average too. This child stands no chance of a really good education as the schools round here are rubbish and her parents haven't a clue either. If a professional was to point them in the right direction she could thrive in a good grammar school.

To be fair, if she has been doing Y6 maths since Y3 then the school she is at isn't rubbish, it's providing a suitable education for her. My DD2 is, like DD1 before her, bored witless at a primary school which is unwilling to provide extension work for outliers.

"The only children in our town to access grammar schools have done so solely by parental input and them doing all the leg work."

I think that even in areas where there is a high density of GS, if parents aren't behind DC going to them, it is going to be hard for DC to access them. The biggest issue is how to get the population as a whole to value education - the more education is valued across the country, the greater the chance of any individual child being helped to access high quality education by its parents.

Bonsoir.

I agree that parents have to be behind their dc. My point is how can they be if they don't know their dc are entitled to go to grammar, or where they are/ catchment, system etc.
Until every parent is made aware of the facts it won't be a fair system.
I do wholeheartedly agree with grammar schools though.

I think that there has to be more awareness-raising of the benefits of education.

"I agree that parents have to be behind their dc. My point is how can they be if they don't know their dc are entitled to go to grammar, or where they are/ catchment, system etc.
Until every parent is made aware of the facts it won't be a fair system.
I do wholeheartedly agree with grammar schools though."

Can you say why, morethan? You agree that the system is not fair, that access depends on parental knowledge/awareness/involvement- but you wholeheartedly agree with it?

Ill try seeker

Ok, firstly quite often grammar schools are better than high schools. Not always, but round here the secondary schools are dire.
I believe that bright dc should be able to access good education whatever their background. I don't believe that removing grammar schools will improve the chances for bright dc as I don't think this will improve secondary education as a result.
I feel with more information for parents, visits, support and encouragement to apply this would make a fairer system.
I will approach the mum of the girl I spoke about, but not sure I will get anywhere. However, I'm sure professionals would stand a good chance.

I think it's the case with any system where access can be a problem, that you work on the access rather than abolishing the whole thing.

seeker - presumably you agree that we should have GCSEs, A Levels and degrees. Presumably you agree that kids with educated MC parent on the whole get better results. It is obviously unfair that a child's academic siuccess is largely governed by who their parents.

So can I turn it around and ask you why support an exam/education system that is unfair?

TBH, in Kent I am not aware of lack of parental awareness being an issue. Everybody knows there are grammar schools and a massive school bus network (that was free, then means-tested, and most recently paying... but that is likely to be reversed) to get the DC to school and back. However, there is clearly an issue with state primaries not preparing DC for the Kent test and a massive paid-for tutoring culture, in particular in West Kent, that has led to massive overinflation of test results: in Sevenoaks 36% of DC pass the Kent test - in Dover only 10% do (Dover grammar schools have their own test, the Dover test, as they are undersubscribed if they only let in DC who have passed the Kent test).

"Ok, firstly quite often grammar schools are better than high schools. Not always, but round here the secondary schools are dire. "

So what happens to the majority of children who don't go to grammar schools?

People always think about the grammar school types. But everyone else is important too.

Seeker, I know the other schools are important as mine have all attended them at some stage.
However, it is not the fault of grammar schools that many bright dc can not access them.
I don't always think about the grammar school type at all, but believe if a child is very bright they should be able to access grammar school.
The majority of dc who don't go to grammar go to other secondary schools some good some dire.
I don't have a problem with this as everybody can't be 11+/grammar school bright.

Sorry, meant to add. Of course we should look at improving any school that is failing or not satisfactory or good. I'm not necessarily talking Ofsted criteria here.
However, this still isn't the fault of grammar schools or their entrance exams or 11+.