Think Carefully Before Opting for Private Education

[PRMum2012]

i am a mum of two (23 months and 3 in august)I am self-employed, part time and married to a lovely architect. We have a great life and two happy kids.

On paper I would say I have not done too badly with my life and my aim is to work full time as soon as possible now my kids are a bit older. If the work was available I would happily work full time now.

Despite setting up my own business I can't help feeling like a failure that I can't afford for my own children, what my parents did for me.... It annoys me that I put so much importance on it ... I am now passionate about finding a decent local primary school for my children so they don't feel the same pressure i do now, when they are older and looking for schools for their kids ....but i'll be honest ......assuming i can afford it i would try and do it from 11 if i can....!!!!...

Hopefully by then, my kids will have an input too and they will be forming their own opinions on the issue.

Depending on mortgage and family support I can't see that it's possible for anyone with two kids earning under £80,000 - £1000,000 + (as a family income) to afford private education anymore, my advice is unless you have a thriving business or two, work as a dr, lawyer or banker.... Forget it.

It's really hard to watch my younger sibling do it for her kids, they are paying for private prep while we cant afford it.... But it really upsets me I feel like this... why can't I just be happy for them and quietly satisfied that I don't need to pay on top of my taxes for my kids education.

For my own primary education i went privately, tried the local school for secondary education but was bullied so moved back to the private system.... I had a mix of private and state during secondary - my second private school was amazing but the second state school I attended for 6th form (my choice) was great too so why is this all having such an impact on what I want for my own kids.

My DH is much more laid back, he went privately all the way through but doesn't place as much value on it as I do/did....I wish I felt the same way but all I feel now is pressure to earn more money so I can pay for them both from 11.

Russian- you are derailing again, making assumptions about what I eat, and also very wrong. The quality of, antibiotic content of and welfare standards of different meats varies widely.

^The poor like to assume the rich work all hours and have no free time and are unhappy but that is just a myth the poor use to keep them happy.>

I wonder if it ever crosses Xeniai's that 'the poor' ( I bet she wanted to say 'plebs' or ' the great unwashed' really) actually often work all hours and have no time for their children. hobbies or fun?

Long hours are not unique to those earning high salaries- as every nurse, teacher, charity worker, et al will confirm.

Job satisfaction does not always = high pay and lots of money rarely = lasting happiness.

"Dregs" is xenia's word of choice.......

Bowlersarm

I know its very few, but I do think the schools that exist to encourage participation at a high level for very bright or talented dc are very important for poor people. My dd is one such child, whether or not she decides to go to the school is entirely up to her and we aren't going to influence her. Obviously she can visit when the time is right, but having no experience of private schools from a parents point of view, I'm neither for or against really.

In terms of contact with children it depends on the age too of the children. I have had a lot over a lot of years including 28 years ago so I would say I can see the full picture and the long view. Most of us who are breastfeeding want as many hours as possible for that. I did find with the twins having our nanny bring them to me to feed in working hours worked really well and then she'd do the settled, nappy change, burping etc and constant changing of clothes. I didn't feel I missed out xN nappy changes a day but I was very glad by then to be working based here whereas expressing with the older ones was harder.

Teenagers are different and indeed parents often have to think of ways to spend time with them which will depend on the child and its interests. 20+ ones are different again, the stage some of mine now are in. All good fun,.

The snapshot of me now is not all of the last 28 years of course. Like most new parents you start out with very little money and forging a career. By the time people on the thread get to my age life can be much easier particularly if you kept your career going and enjoy it. If women "work smart" rather than just hard they tend to do better. Too many think if they just put in hours by osmosis men or their other bosses will recognise their brilliance. Instead they need to market themselves and tell people at work they are good which is quite a difficult thing for everyone to do in a way that does not backfire but plenty of women are worse than men at it.

The choir might well like a trip out to the Pacific but many people are not fit enough to get to my island - you have to be able to jump off a boat in fairly rough seas and climb small cliffs. It is adventure rather than luxury. People can certainly camp there. It is available.

I do a lot of upkeeping of my house myself. I like that stuff. I have all the usual things real women have like saws and plumbing tools. Feminists can be much better at that kind of thing than women who spend their lives in nail bars living off men's earnings. The island group has lots of poor people 2 miles away. We tend , the island owners, to give products to the village schools and hospitals rather than money as the money can get spent on drugs.

I want any girl in the UK who is "poor" to realise she can work all the hours there are, get the best A levels in her school and do well. That is the Thatcher legacy and that is what we want for girls - your life does not have to be poverty line washing men's socks. You can achieve what you set out to achieve whether that be a life as a contemplative nun in a cave or the next White Company owner.

I've just spent day with 2 of mine - building a shed for a local charity. We are very painty. And tonight I'm going out with my eldest for girlie evening at a v loud concert for her boyfriends band. Good old husband is taking youngest 2 out for dinner. I work long, unsociable hours, earn a pittance but love my job. Spending time with my kiddies (all of whom are now taller than me) is the most important thing in my life. Always will be.

Ohh. I'd love to go to your island !!! I can jump off boats and climb cliffs. Pleeeeeaaaaasassee xx

I am sure plenty of parents are the same. Most of us love our children. Some move away when they are adult for work of course. Others grow up in homes where they cannot wait to leave. It is very hard to generalise.

Mumsneedwine

Ah, that is lovely. My dh is working all day/night today. (Musician) has 2 gigs.
Me and dd went dancing this morning (I watched) she did Ballet/ Jazz today. We went to the park, then home for music practice and tonight we will probably sing and dance around the house like loonies.
I am like you in terms of time with dc. They grow up too quick. My ds1 21 has practically left home now and ds2 isn't far behind.

morethan you sound very sensible, and your daughter will get much more of an idea of whether she will want to go once she's had a look round.

However, I really feel that the private school system has really opened up to those that maybe wouldn't have fitted in, in the past (i hope that doesn't sound condescending, i just think the private school class thing has changed). In my experience, through my DSes, and all my friends and their own children, having a fantastic academic ability could be as important as, something like, a huge house with a pool, as far as the children are concerned. I suppose what I am saying is something like don't dismiss it for her, even though you may not feel so comfortable with it.

Seeker the morality doesn't differ though. And while I'm reasonably sanguine about reading your posturing about so many other issues I will not let you moralise about eating meat when you are a meat eater. How do I know you are a meat eater? Because if you were a vegan, you'd be saying what I'm saying.

Agree to differ, Russian. "Posturing" however, is offensive. And unnecessary. But hey ho.

Xenia

That's all very well and good but you are forgetting something- not everyone who wants a top job can have one.

There is this thing called unemployment and more often underemployment.

Someone has to sweep the streets, do the filing, and the menial jobs you delegate to others. And sometimes they aren't doing it from choice - because there is a finite number of 'top jobs'.

There are some professions- mainly law and banking- where salaries are disproportionate often to hours worked and even qualifications.

Some members of my extended family and my friends have PhDs- and they are women!- but because they have worked in medical research, they earn nothing like lawyers, bankers, accountants, etc- so they don't have the choices which your employment affords you.

Bowlerarm.

Not condescending at all. My dh took us to look at the boarding school he taught at years ago. There is no way our ds1 and 2 (didn't have dd then) would have fit in. I don't mean this in a reversed snobbery type of way, but firmly believe in horses for courses. It was set in beautiful grounds in Yorkshire. A most beautiful place, I really loved looking round but the dc were Princes, Rich aristocracy, just generally bloody rich. They scared me and i was glad to get back to our scabby high schools. The school dd is looking at anybody can attend if talented enough and fees are paid on a sliding scale of income. So the poorest (like us) would hardly cost anything, perhaps even free

I have worked with sa lot scientists who set up businesses. Some medical research people who are also entrepreneurial do make money although I agree that plenty do not. All I am saying is women should make informed choices - if you want to live in relative poverty in a yurt you might make one career choice and if you want a different life take another.

I have never denigrated people of limited means and I know plenty of people who work extremely hard for low wages.

Ah, morethan, your DH knows the system well then.

Maybe there are a few private schools that are still elitist, but in general, I think the modern system is that they are far more flexible than they used to be, and the parents are from a varied range of social classes. Good luck for your DD, whatever she decides

Xenia

Only a handful of scientists become entrepreneurs. Many work for oganisations like Cancer Research or are in research funded through the MRC and earn not much more than £35K doing very valuable work , which they love, but which is not well paid.

I think the flaw with your argument is that not everyone has the brains to do what they'd ideally like to ( in employment), not everyone has the drive even if they have the brains, and some of the jobs they choose, if they are blessed with both brains and drive, do not offer telephone number salaries.

It is actually very simplistic to say 'Oh choose a job that pays well so you won't have to live in a yurt.' ( which is a rather middle class choice anyway)

I chose a job I loved but sadly it doesn't pay that well. Given my youth again, I may have chosen differently. But at the time - 18- I was happy enough to choose a career that paid a reasonable salary but would never make me rich- I went for job satisfaction over money. Yes, both are possible- but very rarely and to very few people.

I am not against private ed- ironically my work involves it!- but I don't think it's a meal ticket to happiness, or that parents can can rely on buying their children's long term success via any type of school- a huge amount depends on their innate ability and what they decide to do with their lives.

It is a big problem because most teenagers and students are rather nicely usually left wing and not materialistic and most older people are (who have bills to pay) so teenagers choose careers based sometimes on factors that will not be how they will feel when they older. I suppose most parents want them to keep options over which is why if you have a child very keen say to make music or acting their life or modelling you may suggest get the Cambridge degree in English first and do those thingso n the side.

I spent a lot of my teens singing (I am sitting here listening to some Monteverdi I am going to sing) and I could have gone into that but I am very glad I kept that as a hobby although I tend always to happy so I suspect whatever I had ended up doping even working on a milk float I probably would have liked it.

I think all I want is for women and particularly teenage girls to make informed choices and get qualifications which will equip them for life and realise that with determination you can change career later - I have spoken to plenty of scientists who move mid career to qualify into something else , they tend to be clever so can pass patent attorney exams etc or found businesses and plenty have no interest in that.

Supposedly only 15% of us are hard working, clever and successful. The xx factor or whatever they call it. Some clever people are lazy or happy with a slow pace of life and low earnings.

I agree with you Xena that we should encourage DDs to make informed choices when it comes to careers. Can we include DSs too though?

I was taken aback when I looked at lists of occupations and average salaries in the press a few months ago. I was taken aback to see the disparity between different professions. Architects and vets for example earned a lot less than I thought they had even though the training for those professions is long and hard. I intend to obtain an updated copy of the list in a few years time and discuss it with my DSs (DD is 13 months old so it may be a bit early for her). I think it is important to make informed choices re future careers. I am quite happy for the DSs to go into jobs that are not high earning, I just want to make sure that they know what they are doing.

Xenia.

For once I agree with you, perhaps apart from the music as a career. According to my dh you choose music when you couldn't possibly imagine doing anything else. I also think if you are this way inclined you pretty much know as soon as you are any good at one or more instrument. My dh and many of his colleagues suggest that music chose them.
I think it is more important to do something you love, or have a passion for rather than a well paid job doing something you think is ok.
Totally agree that our daughters need to know that there is a whole world out there, and anything is achievable.

I cannot imagine that anyone with a family income of less than £100k a year could afford two sets of school fees. It seems unlikely. I mean it might happen if you were trying to do meals on £1 a day or someone had bought you a house or something. But otherwise, it seems unlikely to me.

My only take on this is DON'T FEEL GUILTY. If you are a well-educated person, the chances are that your children will be too. If you voice your angst, you risk making your children feel (a) that you failed them and (b) that they are inferior relative to someone whose parents could pay for them. Neither of those feelings is productive. So really, don't feel guilty. You did the best you could. That's all anyone can ask.

Xenia, you need to factor in the cost of a high-earning lifestyle as well, you know. It looks nice, earning £100k+ a year. Looks lovely in fact. But most jobs of that nature carry significantly more uncertainty and stress than less well paid jobs. They just do. That's what you get paid more for, in a sense.

I don't agree at all. I think holding 3 part time jobs (was talking to someone whose newish wife did that this week) is much more stressful or zero hours contracts than your average IT person in London on £100k a year. Low pay, no job security is what causes stress not in a secure profession on high earnings.

I just posted this on another thread where it came up - people unsure about wages in some sectors where were mentioning that some jobs your pay does rise www.rollonfriday.com/InsideInfo/CityFirms/tabid/68/Default.aspx

Agree with W about guilt. I don't feel guilty. Too many women do. Ditch the guilt and be happy and do your best and don't burden children. When mine have competed for school places where most children don't get in where they apply I doubt they really mind whether they get into school 1 or school 2 as it is not a big issue. The child only tends to cry if the parents have made some big deal about it.

Russians. Seeker. It seems such a shame to waste the opportunity and the bond available to two people who know what hidjus teejus means by being it. Chickens schmickens, as Mr West would undoubtedly say.

True, oh King,