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Late Grammar School offer: over the moon but stressed/flummoxed

999 replies

PermaShattered · 29/04/2013 19:35

What a 3 days we've had - any insightful comments welcome. In short:

  1. Our daughter was offered 3rd choice (her 11+ score was about 30 down on passmark);
  2. 3rd school is outstanding but we appealed to 2nd choice school as was our preference;
  3. Last Friday took calls from our local Ed admissions authority saying why appealed when have offer from grammar school?
  4. Said we hadn't. She made further calls to other relevant admissions authority and came back and told us we definitely have an offer and it would be in post next day (Saturday just gone);
  5. It duly arrived, and we posted our acceptance same day (they should have got it today) - verbal acceptance of place given by phone on Friday;
  6. On Friday the Authority also withdrew both our place at 3rd choice school and our appeal to 2nd choice school;
  7. Today i take a call from a friend whose daughter got substantially higher score than my DD - and she is 188 on waiting list;
  8. I call our admissions auth to check they received our acceptance (they said still in posttray but will be dealt with this afternoon);
  9. I query whether there could possibly an error and i'm told categorically 'no'. And if there was, we have a written offer, accepted it and they can't take it off our daughter;
10. Finally, my other DS is that grammar school.

I'm perplexed. What could be a possible explanation?

OP posts:
HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 21:47

fiddly - I suppose that it is technically possible to put everyone who attempts the 11+ on the waiting list regardless of score but it does seem a bit pointless

LaVolcan · 22/06/2013 22:01

are you saying this was historically the case in your area, or across the UK?

As lougle says it was certainly not optional for England and Wales - I can't speak for Scotland and N Ireland. As far as I know the only way of 'opting out' was to be absent on the day/two days of the exam or deliberately messing up the paper.

Whether you got a choice of schools seemed to vary by where you lived - my husband had a choice of grammar schools, but we only had one, but he lived in a city and I lived in a rural area. (But non of this is relevant to Perma - just a historical note.)

HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 22:22

You haven't read the whole ruling but you are adamant that it doesn't prove Yellowtip's point Hmm.

How can you reach that conclusion if you haven't read the whole ruling? Anyway, allow me to summarise the salient point.

A case of maladministration was proved at a selective but only those who had DC's who passed the cuttoff mark were given leave to appeal.

Applying that principle to Perma, yes there was maladministration where she was concerned but since her DC had missed the cutoff in the first place, the maladministration did not deprive her DD of a place. The mistake merely gave her a place and then took it away 7 days later.

Now, people can continue to indulge in their circular reasoning or go on about 3 days and 7 days but BV shows that Perma has no leg to stand on.

This has made me think of something from my legal training a couple of decades ago. I recall covering this in contracts or was it negligence? Either way, a plaintiff has only cause for action if he can show that he has suffered in some way as a result of the defendant's actions or lack of actions. Perma didn't have a place to start of with and she still does

HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 22:25

Damn phone.

.... and she still doesn't have a place. So the maladministration didn't deprive her of anything

PermaShattered · 22/06/2013 22:30

So much for the legal argument that what Perma did or didn't know isn't irrelevant. An offer had been made and she accepted it is argued. It doesn't matter that she suspected that it was an error. Ermm. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. Poor poor comparison with trader. We had 3 possible explanations for the offer - all 3 were reasonable Hubba. Not outrageous. BTW Still not sure what WC Mum means, and your comment about me being able to afford a tutor was ill informed/below the belt and frankly irrelevant.

curlew However, a bit of me does wonder why the OP didn't ask why the offer had been made when it seemed to go against all logic. Because the offer letter said we would hear from the head with induction details. With our other daughter we had a letter within a couple of days. We assumed that letter (which of course wasn't en route!) would tell us why our DD was being offered a place.

A number of people mentioned us asking several times about an error. No, in initial phone call with home admissions they and my DH discussed error and that was rejected in a later call; then I asked 3 days later and I was told it wasn't. Taking a punt? You don't know me, Hubba, and my daughter's education and wellbeing is worth more than that.

curlew Would a reasonable person, on being assured that it wasn't a mistake, not ask "Well, what happened? Was the paper remarked?" yes precisely! And that was one of our 3 possible explanations!

I just can't understand why the OP didn't say to the LEA "Well, exactly how has this thing happened? Was it a re-mark? Was the pass mark changed? Did lots of people drop out?" The LEA would not know that. I know they wouldn't know that.

egged on? That's insulting. I can think for myself.

Oh my - i have a few more pages to go yet!

OP posts:
HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 22:46

Perma - where did I make the "below the belt" remark about you and tutoring? Confused

PermaShattered · 22/06/2013 22:49

what the EFA should do, but may not, is to confirm the AP. Because that's perfectly arguable legally, accords with common sense and produces the right result. That includes the right result for Perma since her DD was nowhere near to being entitled to a place on the basis of the test and it includes the right result for all parents with DC scoring better than Perma's DD... The right result if this was purely a non-qualification appeal. But this isn't. You're putting your own subjective common sense above the law and procedure.

habba a reasonable person wouldn't have expected a place You're right. Wouldn't have expected a place at the first round of offers. But this is different as you know.

rain I know what you raise isn't a dig at me, don't worry! What you and others have raised are perfectly reasonable and arguable. I would also be hopping mad if i was one those children/parents. But in this case I am only concerned for my child. Noone else. And I think the majority of posters here would feel the same.

puss and nenny thanks for your posts. I shall watch out, nenny, for your thoughts particularly :)

hubba Expecting your DD to jump pass 300 kids on the list is not a 'reasonable expectation'. Confused We knew nothing about how many were above DD on the list until days later...

OP posts:
lougle · 22/06/2013 22:50

"but since her DC had missed the cutoff in the first place, the maladministration did not deprive her DD of a place."

Habba in this case there was no cutoff. There wasn't a pass mark.

It's irrelevant anyway, because this case is nothing to do with pass marks.

The maladministration did cost Perma's DD a place - she was awarded it and then had it removed after a long period of time.

Perma, hang in there if you feel you can and if others consider this egging you on, so be it.

LaVolcan · 22/06/2013 22:57

The maladministration deprived her of the chance to make a timely appeal for her second choice, so you can't say it didn't deprived her of anything.

Perma I must say I am puzzled as to why the LA, who must have sent out the offer for No 3 school, then didn't seem to know they had sent this and seemed to think they had sent out the offer for No 1, the GS. Did you get an explanation for that, (or have I just missed that detail?)

HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 22:58

lougle - Perma herself talked about the 'passmark' in her OP. Later on she referred to it as the 'cutoff' mark. So how about you take it up with her?

HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 23:03

LaVolcan - in her recent post, after she got the appeal denial letter, she said that she decided not to continue with her appeal for her 2nd choice.

So, how has the maladministration prevented her from appealing for the 2nd choice?

And isn't it a bit of a cheeky argument? I mean, Perma should be given her first choice because they stopped her from appealing for the 2nd choice.

PermaShattered · 22/06/2013 23:10

Maladministration yes, injustice no. Genius! hehe, yellowtip and hubba you're making me smile now. Yes, that's very enlightening - hadn't come across that bit. Wonder how that ties up with 'mismanaged offers and the withdrawal period ? Maybe we'll never find out.... Or is it irrelevant as lougle believes? (read later posts since writing that)

The issue which needs to be fully resolved first is, is an offer withdrawn later than three days reasonable if the selective standard wasn't met? Since that specific question never seems to have been tested, no one knows what the answer is. yes, i think that's it in a nutshell.

(very, very, very low) score sorry, massive exaggeration here hubba. I think what you mean is "a score where there were a lot of candidates with higher scores" - big difference. You youreself hubba says If you apply to a superselective for exampe you can still score 90% and still not get a place. It doesn't mean that you aren't 'GS material'. Maybe 300 get 89%..... does that mean they couldn't possibly get through GS? You cancel out your argument...

though I also get all the arguments about tutoring. But Perma's DD appears to be firmly outside the category of underprivileged. a hugely presumptive statement this and not the first time you've suggested this. Don't assume that a lawyer must tutor their child through the 11+. That's outrageous.

Right. My laptop battery is about to die - and so am I if I don't get to bed. I have loads more posts to read. Maybe Monday before I'm back. I'll say though that DD is doing remarkably well. We've had a super day and she's so much happier. I'm looking at this academically now and as a lawyer, so rather enjoying myself really! Night all, keep posting!

OP posts:
PermaShattered · 22/06/2013 23:14

hubba There is a phrase to describe this type of reasoning but I can't rekem
*res ipsa loquiter - the thing speaks for itself?

OP posts:
lougle · 22/06/2013 23:15

Cutoff was a term that shows the lowest score which secured a place.

As Perma herself said: " The cut off point is lower today than it was this time last week. Anyone who scored lower than the cut off score is automatically on the waiting list."

It's not a set mark. It is movable. It is simply the lowest mark which secured a place at the school.

HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 23:28

Perma - You seem to have attributed someone else's tutoring remark to me.

That aside, in your OP you said that your friend's DD scored "substantially" better than your DD and was 188th. Now you are saying that your DD, who was 300th, wasn't that far of the cuttoff??

And the thing speaks for itself is not the phrase that I am looking for. I think that I'll let my subconscious work on it.

LaVolcan · 22/06/2013 23:33

...she said that she decided not to continue with her appeal for her 2nd choice. So, how has the maladministration prevented her from appealing for the 2nd choice?

I said 'timely appeal'. Because this came after they had cancelled her appeal for the second choice, and told her that she had the GS offer. Then more than a week later they told her that they were withdrawing the GS offer but reinstating the 2nd choice appeal. But, unless I have read it wrong, she was told on the Wednesday that the appeal would be the following Tuesday, after a Bank Holiday, when they are supposed to give you 10 school days notice. So it wasn't unreasonable to ask for a deferral.

Is it a cheeky argument? I don't think so. No doubt if they had told her this right at the beginning on 28th April or thereabouts she would have had sufficient notice to prepare the appeal for the 2nd choice. But they didn't - they told her she had the GS place and then passed the buck around about the mistake.

She could still appeal for the 2nd choice, but it's further messing about for her daughter, for one thing, and a number of appeals will have been settled, with places filled, making it more difficult to win the case.

HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 23:49

I don't see the difference. You seem to be advising Perma to push ahead with the appeal for choice 1 but when it's suggested that she still can appeal for choice 2 you talk about it not being desirable because it messes up the DD.

Why does appealing for one schools messes it up for the DD but not when appealing for the other?

Yellowtip · 22/06/2013 23:54

Yes that was my tutoring remark Perma, not from Habba and also my comment, again not from Habba, that your DD had a score which was appallingly low. It really may be time to get real: 30 marks below? That really is dreadful. I mean truly, truly dreadful, not just a teensy bit dreadful. Your attitude is hardening, fuelled by the experts but then so is mine: bottom line I'm afraid is that your DD is woefully short of the cut off and you thought you got lucky for several days (which is a blink of an eye in a lifetime). You failed to ask the appropriate questions of the school even though your elder DD is a pupil (so you must have a modicum of familiarity) and your first round appeal has failed. The BV case on which you may need to rely also, rather beautifully, goes against you in one critical respect. Surely as an intelligent person with a legal background and 'a mind of your own' you must recognise that there's something uncomfortable about pursuing a case where no moral right can be shown? Your DD has done nothing to deserve this place, shouldn't that be the end of the matter?

prh47bridge · 22/06/2013 23:55

HabbaDabbaDoo - Contract law does not apply to school admissions. It is entirely irrelevant. The applicable law is the Admissions Code and the School Standards and Framework Act 1998.

The case on which you attempt to rely was about admission appeals being conducted incorrectly, which straight away means it is not directly comparable. The school concerned had a pass mark. Pupils scoring below this mark would not be admitted even if the school had a place available. That is immediately different from this case. This school does not have a pass mark. It simply uses the test scores to place candidates in order. If it has a place available it must admit the highest scoring candidate regardless of their actual score. This is a crucial difference which means you cannot extrapolate from the LGO decision to this case.

I don't know what you think the OP should have done when offered this place. She contacted the LA several times and was assured the offer was correct. If she had rejected the offer on the grounds that she was convinced it was incorrect her daughter would have been left without a place at any school. The place at her third choice school would not have magically reappeared. Indeed, the LA would have been under no obligation to come up with a fresh offer at all.

Similar cases have been dealt with in the past by both the LGO and judicial review. Both the LGO and the courts have been clear that an offer made in error must be withdrawn within days or it stands. The courts agreed that an offer made in error could be validly withdrawn the same day. The LGO decided that an offer made in error must stand if not withdrawn within 3 days. Those are the rules. It matters not that the child shouldn't have been offered the place - that was, after all, the situation in both the LGO and judicial review cases.

Why must the offer stand? Because the parents and potentially the child can be massively disadvantaged otherwise. They may have committed significant sums of money on child care, uniform purchase, etc. based on the offer they have accepted. No-one is going to compensate them for that loss if the school is allowed to withdraw the place. Also, if a place at the first choice school is offered that overrides any place that would have been offered at the lower choices. If the first choice school is allowed to withdraw the offer weeks later the pupil may be left with a place at a sink school miles from home as the schools they might have got into if the offer hadn't been made in error (or had been withdrawn quickly) will have gone to other people. That is the reasoning used by the LGO in establishing the precedent.

You may not like the way the law stands on this appeal but it is clear. If a place offered in error is withdrawn incorrectly (as has happened here) that is maladministration that has deprived a child of a place. The fact that the place would never have been offered if the admission arrangements had been correctly administered is irrelevant.

The appeal panel in this case is clearly wrong in stating that the admission arrangements were administered correctly. If they had stated that there was maladministration but PermaShattered's child had not been disadvantaged that would have been a defendable position, although it would be clearly wrong based on precedents. But to state that there was no maladministration flies in the face of the facts. If the EFA is working to the same standards as the LGO (as they should be) the decision of the appeal panel will be overturned.

Yellowtip · 23/06/2013 00:02

So you concede that had the AP found that there was maladministration but the child had not been disadvantaged that would be ok, in law. I love these shifting sands :) Can no 'expert' on MN ever bear to be wrong! Soft landing I say.

HabbaDabbaDoo · 23/06/2013 00:06

Well prh47, the away team called it right as far as the appeals outcome is concerned. I for one can't wait for the EFA decision to see if we can make it 2 for 2.

LaVolcan · 23/06/2013 00:12

I didn't advise Perma anything re her GS appeal.

Her first post dated 29th April talks about what a 3 days they had had. So on 26th April, her LA acknowledges that she is appealing for her second choice. If, instead of asking why? and cancelling it they had said righto, you have got school three - the appeal date for 2 will be heard on 7th May. It would still not have been giving her sufficient notice, (if I have got those dates correct), but she would have gone ahead and done it. Whether it was successful or not, that would have been the end of it. That would have been a straighforward case about whether the prejudice to the school outweighed that to her daughter, and there would be nothing about maladministration involved. Instead they spent a week reassuring her that the offer wasn't made in error, and then decided to withdraw the place and reinstate the appeal, by which time the hearing was imminent and not unreasonable Perma asked to delay.

lougle · 23/06/2013 00:20

I find it sad that you're likening a child's future to a sports match, Habba.

HabbaDabbaDoo · 23/06/2013 00:22

Please spare me the false indignation.

Yellowtip · 23/06/2013 00:27

Oh 'child's future' ffs. The child was ok after March 1st according to mum and if anyone bears responsibility for elevating false hopes it's you lot, the self proclaimed experts of MN, who arrogantly and pompously refuse to brook being wrong.

If the child wanted its future assured it should have scored 30 marks better. Tbh an outstanding comp isn't bad, in global terms.