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Late Grammar School offer: over the moon but stressed/flummoxed

999 replies

PermaShattered · 29/04/2013 19:35

What a 3 days we've had - any insightful comments welcome. In short:

  1. Our daughter was offered 3rd choice (her 11+ score was about 30 down on passmark);
  2. 3rd school is outstanding but we appealed to 2nd choice school as was our preference;
  3. Last Friday took calls from our local Ed admissions authority saying why appealed when have offer from grammar school?
  4. Said we hadn't. She made further calls to other relevant admissions authority and came back and told us we definitely have an offer and it would be in post next day (Saturday just gone);
  5. It duly arrived, and we posted our acceptance same day (they should have got it today) - verbal acceptance of place given by phone on Friday;
  6. On Friday the Authority also withdrew both our place at 3rd choice school and our appeal to 2nd choice school;
  7. Today i take a call from a friend whose daughter got substantially higher score than my DD - and she is 188 on waiting list;
  8. I call our admissions auth to check they received our acceptance (they said still in posttray but will be dealt with this afternoon);
  9. I query whether there could possibly an error and i'm told categorically 'no'. And if there was, we have a written offer, accepted it and they can't take it off our daughter;
10. Finally, my other DS is that grammar school.

I'm perplexed. What could be a possible explanation?

OP posts:
lougle · 22/06/2013 19:06

Sorry...have I missed something?

Habba, it is yellowtip that said "I think the Bishop Vesey case pretty much ties it up. Maladministration yes, injustice no. Genius!"

I was responding to that and saying that yellowtip has missed the point in relying on the fact only those boys who reached the pass mark were recommended to get fresh appeals.

Yellowtip · 22/06/2013 19:15

Perma tells us that the AP stated in its decision that admitting her DD with her (very, very, very low) score would be incompatible with the school's admissions policy. It's a skip and a hop to the BV case where there was a 'pass mark'. The school in question will retain all its data in minute detail for the past however many years and will see, almost inevitably, that no child with a score 30 marks below the last person in has been admitted ever since records began/ were retained. Certainly not without devastating illness or family tragedy or something of that ilk.

The pomposity of the experts on the thread has hardened me I'm afraid, without any personal animosity whatever towards Perma. I do however have a gut instinct that grammar places should go to those who've proved their worth in the exam, though I also get all the arguments about tutoring. But Perma's DD appears to be firmly outside the category of underprivileged.

Look, no way no how should this child have a place because she didn't deliver on the day and had no obvious excuse not to. The BV case draws a nice distinction with selective appeals between those who suffer injustice from maladministration and those (the low scorers) who don't. The rationale is very clearly applicable to Perma's DD.

As far as I can see this does distinguish between selective schools and non selectives which marries up with common sense and leads to a fair outcome. At the end of the day the DD has suffered no gross injustice and should not have a grammar place. Not in 300th place. Awarding a place to her would in itself be an injustice.

nennypops · 22/06/2013 19:23

That's correct - the Bishop Vesey case doesn't help Yellowtip's argument at all, but what it does illustrate is that it is well established that selective schools cannot claim special exemption from the law unless the relevant statute or code of practice actually says so. And that's a point made in my previous post which Yellowtip skates right over.

Yellowtip, you seem to be accepting up there that the law on mistaken offers does apply to grammar schools, so I'm not sure what your argument is. You've moved on to saying that it shouldn't apply, which is a different issue. If you're going to have an exception for grammar schools, where does the process stop? Should there be exceptions for faith schools, schools using banding systems, schools reserving places for specific skills, academies, failing schools, outstanding schools, schools in rural areas, inner city schools; should grammar schools be able to claim exemption from the law on exclusions, provision for disability, the rules on charging, etc etc?

fiddlyfoodlebird · 22/06/2013 19:23

Oh dear. lougle "Perma's Grammar School did not have a pass mark. Her DD did not fail, she simply didn't score as highly as other children. "

I tell DH that he didn't fail the 11+ all those years ago afterall Hmm That's going to be a wonderful confidence booster to those who only scored 20% of the available marks, or were ranked 499th out of 500 - don't worry dear, you didn't fail your 11+ afterall Confused

nennypops · 22/06/2013 19:26

Sorry, when I said "that's correct" I was referring back to Lougie's point when she set out what the Bishop Vesey case doesn't support Yellowtip's argument.

HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 19:27

The BV case was introduced to the thread to prove that case precedent favoured Perma. I made the point that it was to do with errors in the appeals process and not with the offer process.

On a separate note, Yellowtip used the case to make the point that the official view of 'maladministration' did not extend to DCs that did not meet the pass mark at this selective.

I see nothing confusing or contradictory about that.

LaVolcan · 22/06/2013 19:36

I tell DH that he didn't fail the 11+ all those years ago afterall
No, in those days you were selected for the appropriate school, and there was no nonsense with marks - simply a letter saying where you were going to go.

HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 19:38

fiddly - to be fair to lougle, it wasn't a silly remark.

Some GS's, usually undersubscribed ones, have a pass park. If you pass then you are in.

Over subscribed ones have a cut off mark. If you apply to a superselective for exampe you can still score 90% and still not get a place. It doesn't mean that you aren't 'GS material'.

I don't doubt that the OP's DD is GS material. My Hmm is to do with her going to a school where she is 300 places below the last kid in.

HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 19:43

... also, if a DC is on the waiting list then this means that the child had met the minimum standard for the GS.

lougle · 22/06/2013 19:46

fiddlyfoodlebird if you look back to an earlier point in the thread, the issue of 'pass marks' was discussed. It is a very important point. Some LAs use a 'pass mark' and the Admissions Code specifically allows them to leave spaces empty if not enough children gain the specified pass mark. This means that unless the child can be shown to be grammar school material, that exceptional circumstances were at play that affected their pass mark and that the prejudice to the school from admitting is less than the prejudice to the child from being deprived of the place, their appeal will fail. Even if there are 14 spare places.

Perma's DD's Grammar School have no such system. They do not set a pass mark. They simply rank the scores in order and take the first, say, 230 children on the list according to the rankings. If there are several children on the list who scored the same score and could therefore all qualify for the last place, then oversubscription criteria would apply.

This is an important point when looking at the Bishop Vessey case, because the recommendation was that all children who 'passed' got the opportunity of a fresh appeal. The implicit consequence of that is that while the maladministration affected the appeals of those children who did not pass, they could not benefit from it because the correct criteria had already excluded them.

Habba the BV case could have now been very relevant, because Perma's case now is a potential EFA (LGO equivalent) case. If Yellowtip's understanding of the case had been left to stand, it may have given Perma or another parent reading in the future, the impression that their grounds for further appeal were inadequate. The distinction between a grammar 'pass' system and a grammar 'first past the post' system is important.

In any case, it is a bit irrelevant, because this is about a withdrawn place, not a place not offered, which LaVolcan pointed out eloquently.

Further to your earlier point:

"I don't recall seeing it posted but has anyone seen the full text of the appeal denial?

Its just that everyone is outraged that the appeals panel has ignored the law but I would have thought that the official letter would have detailed the legal reason for denying the appeal. "

We don't have access to the full text of the decision, but the bit that Perma quoted:

"Here's part of the appeal decisions: ".... the panel agreed that the admissions arrangements complied with the mandatory requirements of the Schools Admissions Code and Part 3 of the Schools Standards and Framework Act 1998 and that the admission arrangements were correctly and impartially applied......"

specifically "and that the admission arrangements were correctly and impartially applied......", is so clearly wrong that the whole judgement is called into doubt. If the admission arrangements were correctly applied, Perma wouldn't be in a possession of an offer letter stating that her DD had a place!

Remember, again, that the mistake which clause 3.5 deals with in this case, would be the mistake of withdrawing the place too late, or rather, to put it into 'positive terms' - taking too long to realise the mistake and failing to withdraw it within the established window of opportunity. That mistake deprived Perma's DD of the place that was, by then, hers.

nennypops · 22/06/2013 19:46

I think I introduced the BV case, and it wasn't in order to suggest that that specific decision is a case precedent that favours Perma. However, what it does establish firmly is that grammar schools can't claim to be special cases and exempt from the law. Those who argue otherwise now seem to be relying on gut instinct, which is fine, but doesn't affect what the law is and what the appeal panel should have decided.

lougle · 22/06/2013 19:48

Exactly, nennypops. The grammar school can't complain that they are a special case. They aren't. In the slightest.

fiddlyfoodlebird · 22/06/2013 20:45

I tell DH that he didn't fail the 11+ all those years ago afterall
"No, in those days you were selected for the appropriate school, and there was no nonsense with marks - simply a letter saying where you were going to go."

Sorry LaVolcan but without knowing how old dh is and where he lived, how do you know when "those days" were and what system was applied ie opt-in or opt-out? What do you mean, when you say "you were selected for the appropriate school and there was "no nonsense with marks"

LaVolcan · 22/06/2013 20:56

I was thinking back to my own school days... too many years ago, but when comprehensives were coming in, but still far from common. Our head teacher dished out the letters with a little homily about not passing or failing, but being "selected" for the right school. They certainly never published marks - you were just told xxx grammar or yyy sec mod. There definitely seemed to be quotas in force - the town schools always sent the same number to the GS, other large villages always had say six people in the year, smaller villages, one. If it was a bulge year, the Sec Mods had to suck up the extra numbers.

My brother took his 11+ the year before in a different part of the UK and it was the same there.

LaVolcan · 22/06/2013 20:58

Oh and there was no opting in or out of the exam. It must have been a pretty miserable experience for those children from the schools which only ever sent one child to the GS to know that their chances of getting to the GS were pretty much zero of 'passing'.

HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 20:59

lougle - your reasoning is a bit circular.

I mean, Perma is legally entitled to the place because of maladministration. The appeals panel said that all the procedures had been correctly followed. If they had been correctly followed then Perma would have had her place confirmed. It wasn't confirmed. Therefore this proves that the appeal was not correctly carried out. Case proven Hmm.

There is a phrase to describe this type of reasoning but I can't rekem

HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 21:00

.....can't remember what it is.

LaVolcan · 22/06/2013 21:04

If they had been correctly followed the Perma wouldn't have been going to appeal at all, unless she went to appeal for her second choice school.

lougle · 22/06/2013 21:13

My reasoning isn't circular. My reasoning is that the LGO rulings show that 3 days to withdraw is too late. Perma's DD had her place withdrawn after 6+ days. If they hadn't done that, Perma's DD would still have her place and there would be no need to appeal. They made an error in withdrawing the place.

HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 21:16

nenny - I am not aware of anyone saying that the law does not apply to GS.

What posters like Yellowtip are saying is that some posters are taking case law relating to non-selectives and arbitrarily applying them to selectives.

In the BV case Yellowtip acknowledged that the maladministration rules do apply to selectives. However, and this is where she slam dunks the ball, that case shows that because the school was a selective, only those with kids who scored higher than the cut off were given leave to appeal.

I know that it wasn't your intention nennypops but I think that you inadvertently made Yellowtip's point (and case) for her.

fiddlyfoodlebird · 22/06/2013 21:19

.. also, if a DC is on the waiting list then this means that the child had met the minimum standard for the GS.

Habba, which minimum standard is this and who sets it? I thought anyone who had taken the 11+ could potentially be on the waiting list?

fiddlyfoodlebird · 22/06/2013 21:20

lavolcan - "Oh and there was no opting in or out of the exam."
are you saying this was historically the case in your area, or across the UK?

HabbaDabbaDoo · 22/06/2013 21:23

lougle - you haven't read the whole ruling, only what Perma has deemed to post. So you don't know why the panel dismissed the 3 days business. For all you know, they might have grounds for a legal eexception to this rule.

What you seem to be arguing is that their interpretation of the law pertaining to this case differs from yours and the fact that they don't agree with you is proof that they are wrong.

lougle · 22/06/2013 21:33

Habba - Yellowtip hasn't produced a shred of evidence -not an LGO ruling or even a sentence from the Appeals Code to show that selective schools have different rules. There's a good reason for that - it doesn't exist.

I haven't read the whole ruling, but the very fact that they state the arrangements were correctly applied when they weren't is evidence that they got something fundamentally wrong.

As they are meant to establish whether a mistake was made first, and an appeal must succeed if they find that a mistake was made which deprived the child of a place, which it has (they removed the place too late) then we can safely say they got it wrong!

lougle · 22/06/2013 21:34

My Mum did the grammar school entrance exam in 1961. There was no option. She had to do it. She did noughts and crosses through the exam paper because she didn't want to go to grammar school.