Late Grammar School offer: over the moon but stressed/flummoxed

[PermaShattered]

What a 3 days we've had - any insightful comments welcome. In short:

1. Our daughter was offered 3rd choice (her 11+ score was about 30 down on passmark);
2. 3rd school is outstanding but we appealed to 2nd choice school as was our preference;
3. Last Friday took calls from our local Ed admissions authority saying why appealed when have offer from grammar school?
4. Said we hadn't. She made further calls to other relevant admissions authority and came back and told us we definitely have an offer and it would be in post next day (Saturday just gone);
5. It duly arrived, and we posted our acceptance same day (they should have got it today) - verbal acceptance of place given by phone on Friday;
6. On Friday the Authority also withdrew both our place at 3rd choice school and our appeal to 2nd choice school;
7. Today i take a call from a friend whose daughter got substantially higher score than my DD - and she is 188 on waiting list;
8. I call our admissions auth to check they received our acceptance (they said still in posttray but will be dealt with this afternoon);
9. I query whether there could possibly an error and i'm told categorically 'no'. And if there was, we have a written offer, accepted it and they can't take it off our daughter;

10. Finally, my other DS is that grammar school.

I'm perplexed. What could be a possible explanation?

This is the thing that we disagree on, Yellowtip. You seem to think that different schools should be treated differently and therefore case law cannot apply across the board.

I am saying that an appeal that fits Stage One criteria (ie. maladministration or mistake) should not take into account any other factors of the school because to do so would be to consider prejudice and make a value judgement.

A Stage One appeal is a 'binary' appeal - it is as simple as 'Did a mistake happen which cost the child their place?' Yes gets scored 1, No gets scored 0 - a score of 1 or more wins.

The only justification I can see, which I thought about prior to the hearing but have no evidence for, is this:

The appeals code says:

"3.5 The panel must uphold the appeal at the first stage where:
a) it finds that the admission arrangements did not comply with admissions law or had not been correctly and impartially applied, and the child would have been offered a place if the arrangements had complied or had been correctly and impartially applied;"

I wonder if the panel went to Stage 2, because that exact wording is a 'test positive' criteria. In other words, the test is not 'was there a mistake' but rather 'was there a mistake and would the child have been offered a place if there were no mistake?' In this case, the answer is 'no'. If no mistake had been made, Perma's DD would not have been issued a place.

So, it may be that the panel felt that the answer was 'no', so moved on to the Second Stage.

However, if you consider that there were two mistakes, the first being the initial offer and the second being the overlooking of that offer and withdrawal of the place long after a reasonable time period, then the argument stands that a mistake was made and if the admitting authority had stuck to the established rulings, they would not have removed the place. That decision cost Perma's DD the place, and that satisfies the criteria of 'the child would have been offered a place' because the child did have a place.

I sincerely hope that 'my thought I have no evidence for' is wrong and I do feel that the LGO case is encouraging, because in that case the children had no right whatsoever to a place and still got one, despite the fact that if the rules had been fairly and impartially applied they would not have got one.

"on the grounds that this is a selective school and different considerations pertain"

I ask you again, Yellowtip, to show me the clause in the Appeals Code, the Code that the Panel must abide by, which justfies your opinion?

This isn't about what you think should be the case. It's about what the Appeals Code lays down as the correct procedure and the grounds on which an appeal must be decided.

Perma, I'm sorry you didn't get the result you wanted. I do remember how awful it was to not win an appeal and wouldn't wish it on anyone. .

This quote is from the LGO website, concerning a Grammar school appeal:

"?The School says that the Appeals Code is not suited to a small single school. The Appeals Code is statutory guidance intended to ensure that both parties to an appeal feel there has been a fair and transparent consideration of the issues. The School is not entitled to ignore parts of the Code because it is difficult for them to follow.?

Another lurker who has been quietly rooting for you Perma, so sorry to hear about the interim outcome, but agree that you should pursue it. Your DD is so lucky to have such lovely parents as you and your DH supporting her (and your DH supporting you) - ultimately that counts far more than the school she eventually attends.

Going against the tide here, but I don't think you should appeal further. It sounds as though the result is fair and it will be disruptive to your DD to go further.

Gosh sorry to see that your lost your appeal.

I only started reading this thread today and I didn't initially realise how old it was, so I was going to comment that I didn't understand why you were determined to fight this so hard and drag this out for any longer when the 2nd and 3rd choice schools were so good and 'outstanding.'

Obviously your daughter is bright, and honestly in good high achieving comprehensives bright kids will do as well as they would at a grammar.

Grammar schools get better results becuase they only have bright kids, but at good comprehensive there is a broader ability range so the average reported scores are lower but the top streams will be getting similar results to the grammar.

So when this is your choice why fight fight??

I live in a big city withi several grammars. I totally understand parents who live in the areas where the comprehensives are poor (and these ae extensive) pushing fighting and tutoring to get into the grammar, as the choice then is stark and life changing.

But for those who live in the areas where they're guaranteed to get into a good, really good, comprehensive, there just isn't the need to push so hard and many primaries around here very few kids go in for the grammar test, they just go o to the comp nd do really well.

It seemed to me that the fighting for this as if it were some holy grail of education just wasn't necessary and will have unnecessarily dragged out the feeling of limbo, anxiety and anger you and your DD have been feeling. For what??

People go a bit mad about grammar schools as if all depends on it. For some it does, but usually for bright middle class kids who live near a good comprehensive it really doesn't.

I hope your DD will be really happy at her new school, and will quickly put this awful experience behind her.

TBH I wouldn't be surprised of in 5yrs time you say ' I'm really glad she went to that school it's been brilliant for her.' hope so anyway.

"It sounds as though the result is fair and it will be disruptive to your DD to go further."

Wuldric on what basis does it sound 'fair'? The Code is quite clear and I haven't seen an argument which supports the panel's decision based on the Code yet. Probably because there isn't one.

Cutting to the chase, the OP's dd didn't get the required score. Not even close. Yes, they've cocked up administratively. But looking at it from a distance and not being emotionally involved or engaged, the result looks fair.

So much talk, of Codes, fighting, winning, no much talk of what's best for the child.

I question the whole presumption that the grammar would be best. She's bright,there's a good comprehensive, she'll do well there, probably as well as at the grammar.

fighting will build anxiety, further potential disappointment, sense of in injustice, anger and having lost something amazing fighting for.

The stakes weren't high enough for this IMO, and certainly aren't for continuing the painful process.

The LA cocked up massively, it's terrible and a shambles but deal with it in the best way for her and not just because your right.

*The appeals code says:

"3.5 The panel must uphold the appeal at the first stage where:
a) it finds that the admission arrangements did not comply with admissions law or had not been correctly and impartially applied, and the child would have been offered a place if the arrangements had complied or had been correctly and impartially applied;"*

This is the bit that always concerned me. First, my DD would not have had an offer had the arrangements been complied with/correctly/impartially applied. So our appeal failed, i think, on this point.

Here's part of the appeal decisions: ".... the panel agreed that the admissions arrangements complied with the mandatory requirements of the Schools Admissions Code and Part 3 of the Schools Standards and Framework Act 1998 and that the admission arrangements were correctly and impartially applied......"

But is there anywhere else where the offer breaches the Code/other legislation that applies - other than 3.5 above?

Secondly, going to yellowtip's point: I'm sure I'm correct in remembering that rulings to date on the period between offer and withdrawal didn't involve a child who was under the cut off point for grammar school, had no other grammar school offer elsewhere and had an offer for a grammar school later withdrawn.

Euphemia you are absolutely right. Me and my DH have agreed that as far as DD is concerned (and everyone else we know), if we refer to the EFA(?) it will be completely under the radar.

As far as she is concerned, we're looking forward now and she will be going to the 3rd choice school. We've more or less decided to withdraw the appeal to 2nd choice as a) we have little chance of success b) it drags it on for her and she really does need certainty now.

That's good Perma.

I know that once you start fighting the system you can get so bogged down in the fact that you know you're right that you realise one day you've lost sight of whether the fight is benefitting your child. I know because I've been there but on an SEN issue.m

To this day in our case I know we were right and the system was wrong but I had let some of it go as the mental energy, negative energy, of fighting it was becoming destructive for me, my family and my child.

You having to go through this becuase of an LA mistake is so wrong, but ultimately I hope your DD will be happy at her new school and I'm sure thes ever chance she will be.

".... the panel agreed that the admissions arrangements complied with the mandatory requirements of the Schools Admissions Code and Part 3 of the Schools Standards and Framework Act 1998 and that the admission arrangements were correctly and impartially applied......"

How so? How can it have been correctly applied if it resulted in an error? In fact, that alone should warrant you pursuing this. Even if our concern is validated, this sentence is evidence that they've disregarded the mistake.

YellowTip - Yes this appeal panel thinks differently but they are clearly and unequivocally wrong. If the EFA fails to overturn this decision we are into new territory for admission appeals where previously established case law doesn't stand.

Perma - The fact that the offer should not have been made is irrelevant. It was made. They therefore had limited time to withdraw the offer under previous case law. They did not withdraw it in time therefore the offer stands. The appeal panel do not appear to have followed the decision making process mandated by the Appeals Code. If they had done so they would not have considered whether or not the school had room for more pupils, your daughter's score or the prejudice to the school. Please refer this to the EFA.

That's exactly what I was going to suggest. But please let us know what the final result is.

Oh my goodness, i really did think the result would be the end of the road :( At least I've already done the groundwork and little perma (don't think I've typed that before!) now has some certainty. prh47 yes, we will.

Really wish I had the funds to go for judicial review. I could probably do that myself, but if we lost - we'd have to pay the School's legal fees. Not a risk we would take.

Perma, I am very sorry to see your news.
I don't think that the legal position is quite as straightforward as some others do. The Admissions Code has changed a little bit over the years and in its latest version only states, "An admission authority must not withdraw an offer unless it has been offered in error....."
LGO decisions do not actually set legal precedent but, more importantly, I think, the educational landscape has changed since those oft quoted LGO cases. In the previous cases the offers were made by the schools which were under Local Authority control. The people who made the offers may not have had the authority to do so, but it was their schools which had to bear the fruits of their own mistake, and the Local Authority was the Admissions Authority. Academies are not under LA control and are their own Admission Authority. Had it been the school who had made the erroneous offer then I think all the previous cases would have been relevant. However, it was the Local Authority who made the mistake and they are nothing to do with the school; they are simply administering the application and allocation system. The school, apparently, did nothing wrong, but had the panel allowed the appeal on the grounds of the mistake, the school would have to bear the result of a mistake which was none of its making, and for its part it had applied a lawful admissions policy correctly.

I do feel that this leaves people like you in a very difficult position with no real remedy for such a mistake which seems very unfair. I am sure the LGO would "rap the knuckles" of the Local Authority but that doesn't get you a school place or anything much other than an apology I suspect. By all means try the EFA to see what their view is but I am afraid that I would go forth in hope rather than expectation of any positive outcome.

I do hope that you daughter will be happy and do well in her new school once she has got over this miserable debacle.

I was almost certain this would happen- they have completely ignored the case precedent. Please take it further if you feel you can. Most of all - I hope your little girl is ok xxx

I disagree that the school cannot be held to account:

The Schools Admissions Appeals Code states:

"6. The admission authorities of foundation and voluntary aided schools and Academies may ask another body, e.g. the local authority, to carry out some or all of their admissions functions on their behalf. However, the admission authority remains responsible for ensuring those functions are carried out properly." (emphasis mine)

It's irrelevant who made the mistake.

Lougle- you bloody genius!! :)