Please be frank: is paying for prep/junior school worth it?

[IHideVegInRice]

Hello, continuation from my previous thread but with a more specific question! We have mixed sex twins - while private is an option at this stage, the local faith school is pretty good.
What can a prep or private junior school offer my DC that could not be matched by state + extra curricular activities?
Looking further ahead, would they be disadvantaged when applying for highly ranked public schools (if we/they feel this is right) later on if they did not attend private school at primary level?
Thanks!

OhDear
That is true that Seeker doesn't have a choice of a comprehensive so I agree with your comment. However, she isn't always very sympathetic when other people talk about their choices being limited if the choice they have made involves a private school .

"I am willing to bet than 9 out of 10 parents have NO IDEA what really goes on at them."
I agree. sieglinde I'm curious would as your DC is no longer at the school would you care to tell us what independent school your talking about or PM me think I know but my memory isn't all it used to be.
My DS's went to a very well regarded prep frankly i think its bloody awful but most parents thought it was fab and in fairness it worked really well for their children just not mine and a few others.
I doubt there's a school out there however famous and however much you spend that don't have some disgruntled and unhappy parents. Our DC's are not machines they are all different and without a doubt what works for one doesn't work for all. We were one of our parents from my DS's prep who all went on the same day to look at Eton. We had the same tour with the same HM's wife, we listened to the same talk about how wonderful it is (yawn), watched the same video and ate the same cheap biscuits two of us left thinking it was frankly a ghastly place two thought it was the best place in the world. This is life we all drive different cars, wear different clothes and eat different food its only when things don't go the way we as individuals feel they should do we become disillusioned.

Chazs - she won't be sympathetic to me then!

duchess - I accept that private schools have the luxury of employing teachers that are specialists in their subjects and that good state school teachers sometimes have to double up and teach a subject that they are weak in.

So, saying that private school teachers are better is probably a bad choice of words. Nevertheless, the end result is the same. My DCs are receiving a better education as measured by gcse points.

I think happygardening's comment is sensible and I know where sieglinde is coming from. I switched for sixth form to a very famous and selective school (where I boarded). The quality of teaching was indeed outstanding and I had a fantastic time; I went on from there to Oxbridge (along with around half the year) and eventually an academic career. It is a great school and I would definitely consider it for our (still baby) DS in time if we were able to afford it. But I would think very carefully about the fit between child and school. When I was there drug taking (and dealing) in school was rife, supervision was very lax, and the pastoral care was pretty hit and miss. Everything I know about drugs I learned at school - I saw so much less of it at university. (Also the food was appalling, which seems a small point but is actually pretty disgraceful for an expensive boarding school I think.) Combined with intense academic competition this was a destructive environment for some children.

I think if possible it's sensible to speak to recent leavers of a school as well as (or even more than) parents. I certainly did not enlighten my parents about what was going on and I don't imagine anyone else did either.

As far as primary goes, I was at a rubbish private prep and would undoubtedly have been better off socially, emotionally AND educationally at a good local primary. It was drummed into us, for example, that multiplying one number by another always makes it bigger - which obviously works OK for positive whole numbers but sets up a few probs as soon as you start thinking about anything beyond that (e.g. fractions, negative numbers). My mother did loads of extra stuff with us to make up for these shortcomings, which seems a bit crazy when they were paying for the school as well.

kalidasa - At our primary school my DS was taught a method of column addition that only worked for 3 digit numbers.
DS got into trouble one day when the teacher.told him off for not using the taught method. "My mom has a maths degree and she said that this method is stupid".

"silly" maths is not the sole preserve of preps :)

shhh is right that you need a school where your chid will obtain the best care and attention but with the leading private day schools just about all of them are excellent. Many have small classes (if that matters to you) and most have incredible hobbies available so there is likely to be something for everyone. So I don't think if you have say 6 schools available and they all look after the needs of individual children well that it is wrong to add to your analysis that one gets children to a place where life will be easier (good exam results, full development of hobbies they will enjoy for life etc etc).

Anyway it looks from the thread as if many are happy to pay and plenty are happy with the state system so that's a nice position for everyone to be in - happy largely with what they have found.

I chose primary school for my DC on exactly the basis shhhw suggests on the basis that if they're happy they'll enjoy learning and the rest will take care of itself. No such thing as a leading private day school round here in any event, but the 'academic' side of things didn't feature, or barely at all.

I absolutely agree that talking to parents will rarely lead you to the right choice, firstly because all children are different, all parents have different ideas/expectations and also many are not prepared to be truthful.

The latter point became absolutely apparent in our school when it came to the 11+ for independents, I knew for a fact some had been intensively tutored for 2 or 3 years (they passed us on the tutor's details!) and yet heard them brag in the playground that little Johnny got in with "no tutoring at all". Terrible behaviour really, but quite common I believe.

musical - here on MN I read post from people who go on about how their child sat the 11+ without being tutored. Elsewhere they will go on about their highly ranked prep school. Yup, no tutoring being done there eh?

Some parents aren't truthful to themselves let alone with strangers on the Internet.

DS2 swapped his selective Indy for our local comp for sixth form. I'm really impressed with the comp: impressed with the teaching, impressed with the politeness of the students, impressed with the Oxbridge and careers guidance. The Indy is an excellent school too but I really don't think it's worth paying £15K a year (plus unnecessarily wanky uniform, plus b us fares and other extras) as the educational difference is small so as to be imperceptible.

We are now reviewing our previous definite intention to send our younger two to the same fee paying route as their older brothers. It's all a lovely revelation.

Independent school is a big sales gimmick. My sons' independent school is nothing like its brochure.

Which school is that LittleFrieda?

Sometimes the grounds and buildings are the ONLY constants, Frieda. What is often lacking is the promises about treating dcs as individuals, high standards, and an antibullying policy.

"The Indy is an excellent school too but I really don't think it's worth paying £15K a year (plus unnecessarily wanky uniform, plus b us fares and other extras) as the educational difference is small so as to be imperceptible.

We are now reviewing our previous definite intention to send our younger two to the same fee paying route as their older brothers. It's all a lovely revelation.

Independent school is a big sales gimmick. My sons' independent school is nothing like its brochure."
*LittleFrieda" I've absolutely no doubt you points are valid. But a lot depends on what we as parents and our DC's expect from education I'm not saying my expectations are better than yours just different . Im not just talking about exam results and universities. As someone whose sent their DC's to a boarding school from a relatively young age my expectations are likely to be different I'm looking for something else to those comparing one good independent school with a good state school.

sielinde well in my experience the state sector is not exactly covering itself in glory when it comes to treating children as individuals.
With regard to bullying I cant comment on my DS1 (state comp) effectiveness of their policy as fortunately I've never needed to find out. I do have inside knowledge on two top big name independent schools (not my DS2's one again luckily i've never needed to find out). Frankly I was stunned at how fast and hard they came down on bullying.

I can comment on how boarding schools deal with bullying. They move very, very quickly. Parents just wont put up with it having paid all those fees. My DS's friend was removed from a famous school for mucking around in class and taking too much of an interest in girls (he was 15 btw).

I've seen one or two secondary kids pulled out of posh Cambridge indy schools lately as they were underachieving. The parents got completely fed up shelling out the cash for something they could get in a village college for free. In the event the village college had to provide top up tuition in both cases, so the indy pupils could catch up, and I was really But brave of the parents, I though.

Boffin - are your children going to Hill Road. Its just you mentioned Cambridge and I have a friend raving about Hills Road.....

well, happyg and handcream, that's nice. But I found there was some noise and little action.

Hills Road is a very very good school.

Ds's FE college def. treats him as an individual.

Boffin - People often talk about kids that are pushed to their limits and who scrape in by the skin of their teeth at 11+ time. I suspect that the kids that you've mentioned fall into this category.

Speaking generally it's funny how kids that don't do well at private schools are often held up as examples of how private schools aren't that great. However, private school kids that don't do well at Oxbridge are often held up as examples of how private school kids aren't being properly prepared for higher learning.

In one it's the private schools fault for not being able to turn all their pupils into grade A students. In the other it's not Oxbridge's fault for not being able to turn all their undergrads into First Class Honours students. Instead, it's the private schools fault for not preparing their students properly.

Private schools get the blame regardless

"But I found there was some noise and little action."
I don't wish to name the two boarding schools I'm talking about but not only do they make a lot of noise they took immediate and very strong action. i don't think I do know where your DC went but certainly most boarding schools I know take a very dim view of bullying perhaps more than day schools.
I aslo agree with you MTS if children at independent schools don't well its because independent ed is crap. But only this morning I was talking to at teacher at a well regraded localish comp she was explaining to me that pupils who are borderline C for Eng Lang GCSE have literally been told this week that thy wont be entered in for it this June even though they've done the course work etc becasue there poor performance will spoil the schools over all results and position in the league tables.

happy - you mean it's not just private schools that manipulate things in order to look good in performance tables?

I too was shocked MTS everyone knows that only independent schools play those sort of games. As you and I know state schools are positively stuffed with fab teachers who treat each child like an individual, have high expectations for all, the children have a myriad of high quality extra curricular activities; more than any independent school could offer and facilities to die for. Those of us who are paying have been brain washed or we're screaming snobs and social climbers who dont want our children mixing with the hoy paloy (not sure how you spell that) or are too stupid too realise that there is not a scrap of difference.
Oh and let not forget the reason why those who are against independent ed are so vocal is not because they think it's unfair that someone can buy their DC a better education but because they are concerned that we are wasting our money and feel a need to point this out to save us from ourselves.

Sorry, but both my dcs were at boarding/day schools. The prep was a boarding school too. IME, not all independent schools have a proper bullying policy at all. They tend to think a Friday detention and a bawling out will fix it.

Happyg, just to be clear - I never said any of the above stuff you attribute to your opponents. Just that IMHO it's not worth the money. I wish I'd known fifteen years ago what I know now.

I was after all willing to pay out a grand total of 250 k for my dcs until I saw that it wasn't actually benefiting them - and I did pay nearly all of that.... So I'm hardly in a position to play the class card.

By the way, it's 'hoi polloi'. Hoi is just the plural for 'the', and polloi is the plural for people. It's ancient Greek. I hope this isn't taken as rude... I honestly mean it donnishly.

MTS, I can't say more without some serious outing of various people and places but suffice it to say I think these kids were actually overlooked quite badly at the independent schools and that was the root of the problem IMO. I don't think there was a lack of ability there.