Please be frank: is paying for prep/junior school worth it?

[IHideVegInRice]

Hello, continuation from my previous thread but with a more specific question! We have mixed sex twins - while private is an option at this stage, the local faith school is pretty good.
What can a prep or private junior school offer my DC that could not be matched by state + extra curricular activities?
Looking further ahead, would they be disadvantaged when applying for highly ranked public schools (if we/they feel this is right) later on if they did not attend private school at primary level?
Thanks!

Hm to all above.

The point is, what do you get for the massive fees that the state doesn't provide?

My DS is pretty bright, and he had some DREADFUL teachers at his private secondary school, including one who made a string of factual errors in every lesson. He has had some very good teachers at his FE college - and one very mediocre one. I don't think the private teaching and facilities were WORTH 22k per year. For less money - a LOT less - I could have hired very good private tutors for him in all subjects.

The social atmosphere at private school is grossly overrated. There was at both my dcs secondaries endemic bullying and also a lot of drinking and other substance abuse. There was total chaos. Most of the kids were not very motivated. A lot of time was wasted spent watching DVDs and chatting. At the prep school, which is widely seen as One Of The Best, there was frequent complete chaos, vandalism on a terrible scale, sexual activities, and routine laxity in boarder supervision, leading to low work standards, bullying of pupils and also teachers, and sleep shortages.

To those of you who think your Dcs have been at private school and not had these experiences, three words - are you sure?

Why do people persist in comparing crap private schools to good state schools?

"Happygardening - you are in the fairly unusual position of educating one of your sons in the maintained sector and one son as an independent boarder."
Yes I am and it enables me to what the difference is between a top independent school and atop state comp is.
"The point is, what do you get for the massive fees that the state doesn't provide?"
*seilinde" do you really want me to detail the differences?

I think sieglinde is talking about a school almost universally lauded as Very Good Indeed, up there with the school that happy has a DS attending.

I'm CONVINCED you don't get better teachers at private school. And DD1 has had mostly excellent teaching at the FE college through 6th form.

What they did get from independent secondary versus the schools available to us was triple sciences (not available when DS and DD1 were transferring) crucial to them as they are both broadly scientific (DS is now doing engineering, DD1 applying for medicine); the opportunity to do Ten tors (again was not available at our local secondary school when they were transferring although they have started fielding teams since then); plenty of music and groups to play in (DD2 plays in 5-6 things a week at her school, there was nothing but a steel band once a fortnight available at our local secondary school- I know because we asked when we went round); Latin and Greek which DD2 is now mad keen on and wants to do as a degree.

What they got from private prep was sport (my DS obtained a place at a state middle school which simply didn't do any sport apart from music and movement and had no morning break (just 5 mn in the book corner) beyond the first term of year 3 because the children "took too long to calm down afterwards" and offered 35 to a class. DS had just spent 3 years in a class of 35 staring at the wall and being labelled with all sorts of disorders, I wasn't prepared to pursue that frankly. They also got specialist teaching from year 3 including in the sciences and languages. Differences well worth paying for imo.

We have people who are against private schools because they look at the stats for Oxbridge and top jobs and they see an unfair bias.

Then we have the people who think that parents who go private have more money than sense. Afterall, goes the argument, private doesn't offer much, if anything, extra.

How about parents like me step back and let you people fight it out?

Either private schooling gives you something extra or it doesn't. Discuss :)

OP: I don't think so. DC at inner London state primary and hopefully will get into highly selective secondaries at 11+ (private or state). We do need to tutor though in English to make sure he is likely to be able to compete with the prep schools kids. But that is £35 per week. (Interestingly, the Maths at the primary is top notch, there are extension classes for the top kids, and no extra preparation is needed out of school there.)

Comparing CD's experience and those at the preps around SW London that we know, I'd say the education (with the extra help) is broadly the same. The social mix though of class mates is completely different, obviously. Also sport and music is better at the privates - but again we make up for that after school.

The killer for me though is that even the private school kids (around here) get tutored to pass 11+. I had thought the idea of a prep was that that school did it all for you. I was wrong. So am glad we didn't pay.

(And before someone picks me up on it I use the word "prep" in the looser sense of a private primary even if it doesn't go up to age 13.)

But I will likely pay for secondary - since the selective state grammars are so much harder to get into....

MTS, fwiw, my local state school is not "crap". It gets very decent GCSE results and it's a school people travel to deliberately. We actually have very little choice about where to send our children in the state system, either primary or secondary, living where we live. A choice of two primaries and two secondaries. We along with anybody else around here, would only get free transport or any kind of school transport for one of the primaries and one of the secondaries, which kind of forces people's hand about where to send their child.

Sorry MTS, misread your post!

I never thought that I would be saying this but we need seeker's input on this .

No, I am not going to get started on the old Christmas carol service in the school hall thing. Or how there is no orchestra at the school for her musical son to join. Or how she has to go outside to fill in the extra curricula stuff that many private parents take for granted.

Rest assured seeker, I am not going to dredge up all those things. I just thought that you would have an insight on what having more money to spend on a DC actually translates into.

seeker is busy on another thread describing her method for finding out all the other kids' marks at parents' evenings....

yellow I too think I know what school sieglinde is talking about and I am surprised but maybe my experience is fairly unique rather than "fairly unusual* IME my DS2's school in terms of its provision (I'm not talking about exam results) in comparison with the state sector (of which I also have quite a lot of experience of both my DS's and the children work with) is not even inhabiting the same planet. I do accept that there are some independent schools even the famous ones whose provision is surprisingly inadequate although not apparent until your DC has either started there or you have inside information. .
I think we all have to accept that not only do we all have legitimate and different expectations of schools our DC's also require and thrive in different environments.

daphnedill what sort of a school is that? Comp? Grammar? Top grammar?

On no, please not Seeker. I have seen a thread where she berates selective eduction. Really hates it yet allows her DD to sit the 11+ and go to a grammar school. When her DS doesnt pass the same test she goes to appeal.

Still hates selective education though....Really really believes in the comp system (but not for her children!) Diane Abbott springs to mind tbh.

"I'm CONVINCED you don't get better teachers at private school. And DD1 has had mostly excellent teaching at the FE college through 6th form."
duchesse there are good teachers and crap teachers in both sectors. The one thing I do think parents who are paying very large sums of money expect is better communication between teachers/parents/pupils.
Last year i was working for a couple of week in an location where we were not allowed to take our mobile phones or have incoming calls once you been passed to enter the building you stayed until you finished at 5pm. I was desperate to speak to my one of my DS1's teachers and she to me, she left 6 messages in one day on my home phone /mob every time commenting that I was not returning her calls. The following day I left a message at the school explaining my situation and asking her to call me at 17 30 as I was unable to take calls before this and she left me a message saying she didn't call parents after 5pm. She then over the next 4 days proceeded to leave 10 more message accusing me of not returning her calls. I personally find this sort of thing exceedingly irritating.
I've had other similar experiences in the state sector this would never IME happen in the independent sector.

So, private school parents have more money than sense. Really? Do I honestly want to spend large amounts of money to get the same as the state offers?

I went to a terrible state school. I dont want that for my children. I want them to have sport on their doorstep as opposed to having to tramp once a week to some sports field for a hour or so. There are some terrible state schools and for some its the ONLY choice. What happens to them? My DM works at a struggling primary where often English isnt the first language. She gave up teaching years ago but goes in twice a week as a volunteer to hear reading, etc.

My older DS is at a well known boarding school. His school says all to aim for A and A*'s. Do I think he will get that being a late August birthday - no, but he will have a dam good try. He also has a couple of close friends, one is on a full busary as he is a brilliant scholar, the other has very rich parents. It doesnt matter to him one way or the other.

Xenia is right. If private schools are so bad how come a high % of the top best paid jobs are given to ex private school pupils. And where on earth do you get the view that they are spoon fed. Left wing clap trap again.

If your state option is good, well lucky you! If its not or you want a different type of education where disipline is taken seriously, where the hours are longer but you are expected to do your very best then look at a good private school

Am still v concerned at the huge focus here on future university places, jobs, etc etc. What about deciding on the basis of where your small child will be happiest and best nurtured, day-to-day, now? That may well (or it may not) make a difference to their future 'success' measured in the essentially economic terms which keep cropping up above. The OP is in a position to pick and choose. 'Is it worth it' is not just a phrase applicable to financial transactions; 'worth' can be measured - IMO should be measured, at this age - in terms of wellbeing. For almost anything, the facilities at a good prep school are likely to be better than those at a good state school. If your child likes x, y and z, and it makes no odds to you in financial terms (and won't make you hate yourself for political / philosophical reasons), then send them to the place where they will get most chances to do x, y and z, and the place where they will feel happiest and secure (which is probably the place where they have smaller classes and lots of individual attention). I went to a really, really bad school, and yet am now an academic in an Oxbridge college. I think that parental support is what makes children able to get where they want to go in life, in career terms. School can help, but parents are key. So choose a school in the same way as you might choose a nursery - think about the care and attention your child will get, daily, now.

Sorry, true believers, but both dcs schools are universally lauded, top-ranking schools, not crap schools at the bottom of the league tables.

Now someone will say it's my fault, then, or my dcs' fault. It isn't. DS is really academically able, pretty much garlanded with A-stars, and so is dd. The schools were however shite, and I am willing to bet than 9 out of 10 parents have NO IDEA what really goes on at them.

At our private secondary a teacher was recently let go. The school noted that the end of term results for two terms running was worst than under her (maternity leave) predesessor. Same kids but worst results. The school monitored her lessons and concluded that she didn't reach the schools teaching standards so they terminated her.

I accept that there are crap teachers at private schools. I am simply making the point that the academic ones have a reputation to think about. After all, it doesnt take much to make parents transfer their kids.

So yes there are crap teachers at private schools but I maintain that there are less of them compared to the state system.

shhhw
I think you make a good point. I visited a number of primary schools and preps and the prep I picked was the friendliest of the lot. Although it has high expectations of behaviour the atmosphere wasn't stuffy and the children were really relaxed in speaking to the teachers. It also happens to be great for sport and music and feeds into the senior schools we like. Another "well respected" prep I went to see left me cold. The state primaries seemed nice but the large class sizes put me off as both of my children a summer birthdays. Linked to that, both of them would have had delayed entry into the state primaries which I didn't think was in their best interests.

are summer birthdays

sieg - there are parents here who believe that all the choice uni places and jobs go to kids from private schools. If you believe that parents who privately educate their kids have more money than sense then I suggest you open up a dialogue with the above group of parents.I am sure that they would be interested in your insights.

Actually MTS I disagree with you there. I think you will generally find better teachers in the sense of being better at teaching in the state system. The problem is that often they will not be teaching in their own subject area, and will not have sufficient qualification in the subject they teach to be able a) to really enthuse the pupils or b) cope with any questions from brighter pupils.

For quite some years it has been deemed acceptable for teachers to be "one page ahead of the kids" in the state system. That is not their fault- it's a problem of recruitment and timetabling. Ideally all teachers would be teaching what they are truly interested in, and that's where most private school teachers have the advantage. They are not necessarily better teachers, in fact far from it, but they're far more likely to know their shit and the pupils know that and respect it.

handcream ^On no, please not Seeker. I have seen a thread where she berates selective eduction. Really hates it yet allows her DD to sit the 11+ and go to a grammar school. When her DS doesnt pass the same test she goes to appeal.

Still hates selective education though....Really really believes in the comp system (but not for her children!) Diane Abbott springs to mind tbh.^

Seeker - I believe - lives in a grammar school area. There is therefore no comprehensive system where she lives and she has no choice but to do the 11+ thing. It is not the same as Diane Abbott.

Your comment is plain wrong.