Please be frank: is paying for prep/junior school worth it?

[IHideVegInRice]

Hello, continuation from my previous thread but with a more specific question! We have mixed sex twins - while private is an option at this stage, the local faith school is pretty good.
What can a prep or private junior school offer my DC that could not be matched by state + extra curricular activities?
Looking further ahead, would they be disadvantaged when applying for highly ranked public schools (if we/they feel this is right) later on if they did not attend private school at primary level?
Thanks!

I agree with m5 that there are plenty of ways to skin a cat. it may be with some careers accent and clothes help you so just get them watching youtube elocution videos for example which could cost you nothing or whatever else the element is that might confer some advantage in getting a good job.

[Talking teenagers: I spend quite a bit of time with the boys, am here when they get home most days, but they are pretty silent. I drive them to school every day. I am laughing because it's like living with Trappist monks at times, which is not unpleasant but I never get a detailed description about the day]

Yellow - My comment wasn't directed at you

Wherever there are threads about private education there are invariably posters who go on about how they are against selective/private schools because they are elitist. They then go on about how their DC got to Oxbridge via the comp route.

My comments was directed at these parents.

Thanks for that MTS although I have to say it's quite a slim argument to use against those parents. All they're saying is that they got into one or other university without any obvious prior advantage. Anyhow, we're mixing elites here a bit. Some people are fine with educational elites.

Great thread OP - I am currently looking at options for DD and struggling as there seems to be only one primary which scored 'Good' in the latest Ofsted... It is our local one but a new development was built at the top of my road with 200+ houses/flats and I am now worried it will be over subscribed in a couple of years time. So far no plans for a new school locally. Only other option is private junior with the idea she would stand a better chance of getting into a grammar. I want her to go to a grammar if possible, but looking at the prep/private juniors on line they all get around 96% 11+ passes, which surely can't leave much room for the state schools?
(If anyone can advise in more detail about Canterbury area that would be greatly appreciated - hijack alert!)

"this is the elusive quality that happyclaims and is confident that she's buying"
yellow The implication of this comment is that you dont believe that I'm getting this "elusive quality or maybe I'm misinterpreting you. You have also stated on this thread or others i cant be bothered to look through it that you firmly believe that indepednent ed is a waste of money and that everything that is provided by second rate school (I niotice you're downgrade) is available in the state sector. But you don't have children in independent ed. whether they be the top 20 or the bottom 20 so you don't actually know what is provided. You've stated that as a day parent you are more aware of what goes on (i doubt this but lets not argue over that point) but being a day parent at a state school does mean that you know what is going on at a independent boarding school or for that matter at a independent day school. IME also extensive experience of schools whether they be independent or state you don't actually know whats going on until your actually in the school, you can read the websites, do the open days, listen to friends who have children there or even those who don't but have lots of anecdotal stories to tell you but its not till you actually walk through the door and your DC is in the school do you actually know. Many parents in both sectors are surprisingly ignorant of what goes on even when their DC's are there, teenagers are often reluctant yo give feed back, and they trust schools to deliver what that clearly state they will.
yellow in your experience state ed met your expectations which I've already said are probably different to mine especially as your DC's are likely to be different to mine. I think thats great I only wish I could say the same. IME state ed has never met my expectations. I am not alone this morning walking my dogs I'll probably meet 5 other mothers at a conservative guess at least one of those will voice concerns about her state school. I work in 6 different counties (because of our location these are primarily affluent areas) and three large cites I meet probably three thousand people a year not only do i meet patents who are concerned about their state schools many of of my colleagues from professionals to unskilled manual workers express similar concerns. These are not all white pushy MC parents with super bright children but working class parents, black parents Polish parents parents with children with SEN (they really are stuffed) or just average people I here the same story over and over again they feel that their DC's are just not getting a good enough education nearly all say if they had the money they would pay.
More worryingly I've recently met two teachers when walking my dogs and the example I gave above is not a one off incident they too are increasingly disillusioned with state ed.
By contrast when I meet parents at my DC's school all I have met seem genuinely pleased with it Im not saying there are some who aren't but I've never met them.
My DH works for multi millionaires he was talking once to one of the richest men in the world about the effects of the recession. On asking whether or not multimillionaires would still spend their money the reply was "of course we will but we're just going to be more certain that we're getting what we're paying for." There will always be some who stump up large sums of money without asking what they are buying whether it's super yachts, designer lighting/drapes or education but most people who have the kind of money to put 2-3 children through independent boarding schools are pretty shrewd and will IME not tolerate the wool being pulled over their eyes.

I suspect most children from state schools who get into Oxbridge do have some kind of prior advantage - at the least a high IQ but probably also a school which is supportive or helpful parents or lack of illness or ability to work hard or even in some cases such an awful homelife that that is the "advantage" they have which causes them to work hard and get in.

I don't think we can hermetically seal paid for education into some kind of special bubble and say it is more pernicious than having hard working parents whose example you emulate or parents who read to you.

I can't really be bothered with this happy except to say a) you're reading a meaning into my sentence which isn't there and b) I strongly object to you imputing to me a 'firm belief' that independent ed is a waste of money since I don't even havethat belief, let alone a firm one. The highest I'd put it is that if I chose to pay I would only want my DC to go to the most selective schools, not the middling ones because I do have quite a strong dislike of the arrogance which too many of those schools seem to breed. But I like the sort of education the best in the sector provides. Which I'm pretty confident my school also provides.

I happen to be very lucky geographically and in terms of having a superselective on my doorstep (without downshifting) and kids who were able to pass the test. I'm very conscious of that. And I'm not so dim as to say that therefore state ed is uniformly excellent, because it quite clearly is not. But then neither are some of the very flaky schools to be found in the private sector. I also don't feel an overweening need to 'prove' that my school is 'better' than yours and I wonder what insecurity is borne of your school that you constantly feel to need to assert primacy. It's just absurd.

Yellow - why is it a slim argument?

My niece, for reasons I still don't understand, did badly in her A levels (BCD). She failed to meet her RG offer and had to go through clearing. She graduated from a reputable former poly with a First but found that the companies that offered training contracts would only look at Oxbridge/RG graduates.

Don't get me wrong. If I was HR and I had 500 DCs for 20 jobs then the most obvious starting point is to shortlist by degree classification and uni attended.

I am merely making the point that elitism seems to be bad between ages of 4 to 18 but ok from 18 to 21. It becomes bad again if the choice jobs go to Oxbridge grads instead of (general) your RG DC.

I think it's slim because you're conflating social elitism not based on any particular merit with educational elitism based in very large part on merit.

For the same reason, it makes economic sense to recruit from the best universities, although I agree that it would be good for exceptional other applicants to have a look in. Unfortunately for those in your niece's position the job market is currently flooded with applicants with excellent degrees from excellent universities, so it's brutal out there. I feel for her though; exams can quite easily go wrong and that sets off a miserable chain of events from which it's possible not to recover.

Yellow- I must admit I shared your mistrust of lower tier private schools until DD started in one. I had wanted her to take up a place at an academic girls school or the nearest GS. But she was adamant and I was pursuaded to give it a go. And by god have I been proved wrong! Worth every penny. If I had a girl with low ability I'd cheerfully sell a kidney for a place.

My friend moved to be in the catchment of a highly ranked state school in Surrey. Our houses are roughly the same spec but theirs cosr about £350k more.

I'm sorry to disappoint you yellow but i don't feel in the least bit insecure about my choice of school. I'd be the first to admit that I have felt insecure about other schools in both sectors that my Dc's have attended but not at the moment. I have also repeatedly stated that I don't believe all independent schools are 1 st class or nor am I against state ed. What I object to is people making statement about independent ed, the children who attend these schools and their parents that are completely erroneous. When I see these comments I feel a need to dispute them. That too you may come across as arrogant but I find these comment (not just made by you) as offensive and often based in prejudice or anecdotal evidence few are based on genuine experience. You like me are quick to comment on similar comments made about state ed.

Pressed Post too soon.

We on the other hand chose to go private.

Hopefully our respective DCs will meet up. at Oxbridge in x years. In the mean time I struggle to understand how mine would have got there because of rich parents buying an premium education for their kids where as my friends kids got in on merit

£350k more. More than the cost of a top boarding schools fees!

The points about highly selective (1st tier?) private schools vs middling to crap ones is really interesting and exactly what I'm concerned about. If we are going to be paying between 20 and 60 thousand pounds (!) per year for the next millennium, give or take a few years, for two children, we want to be absolutely sure that the schools we have chosen are giving the biggest return on that investment - in terms of academics, extra-curricular activities, pastoral care and in essence the best chance to grow into the best people DS and DD are capable of being. By that I mean happy, balanced, caring, achieving their potential, curious etc NOT necessarily one of the 18A*s, double starred 1st in particle physics from Oxford and a PhD from Harvard crew. What I want to avoid is sending the children to a series of very expensive "comprehensives" when the provision is no better than the school down the road. Someone mentioned this further up and I absolutely agree - independent education wasn't something my parents considered as optional, it was just the done thing, whereas for us and I suspect many of our generation it is not unthinkable to put the children through Hill House/Newton/Dragon/Eton/Westminster/CLC blah blah but requires careful consideration of what exactly one gets for what is actually a massive amount of money. Hence my neurotic posting!

Happy - I don't find the comments 'offensive'. However, I do privately roll my eyes at the prejudice. Occasionally it's accompanied by a loud tut.

Here are some of my favourites.

I want my kids to go to a school with a diverse cohort. As if there is lot of diversity in their predominantly white MC village school.

I don't want to mix with a bunch of snooty mums. No chance of meeting bitchy mums at the school gate of your state school eh?

I don't want my kids to become entitled. Too late. The mobile phone, Xbox and the Hollister/Jack Wills tops has already made your teenagers feel entitled.

I do not believe in buying an premium education for my DCs. You paid how much to be next door to your highly ranked state school?

Xenia [I've not yet produced a teenager who talks much about school. How do you squeeze the information out of them?]

This. My kids never stop talking about the stuff that interests them (or, at the moment in DD1's case, the stuff she is revising. Why she thinks that telling me all I (never) wanted to know about earthquakes is any help at all given that I didn't do geography and I have no idea whether she is telling me accurate information or made up gobgoo I do not know) but it's like getting water out of a hen's tooth to get any info out of any of them at all about actual school. Although since I adopted their policy of answering every question (such as 'what is for dinner') with 'I d'know' they have got a little better.

You make a good point about advantage. On the face of it I was very disadvantaged, but ultimately, the most important thing for me was having parents who loved me, and parents and teachers who believed in me. I also had some really good friends, a couple of whom were really quite posh, so their aspirations/attitudes were probably a factor too.

Like Yellow, I have no problem at all with academic elitism. The problem that some of us have on these threads is not the existence of such bastions of excellence as WinColl but the arrogance of the parents who send their kids there and then say such things as 'my children aren't like yours' or 'I want different things from education than you do' implying that the different thing isn't privilege additional to that bestowed by being rich and brainy (which surely should be enough?) when of course, it is.

Xenia why are you so obsessed with accent? Is this a northern thing? Times have changed and people really don't mind regional accents in the City any more, you know. Accent and being able to speak articulately and grammatically are of course not at all the same thing. Mind you, I firmly believe that some people are kidding themselves if they think they speak articulately based on some of the events I've attended and participated in this week. That is something that the really posh schools do excellently well, although I think they sometimes miss the mark with their less bright kids who can be prone to bluster. But for the bright ones (ie most of them), the confidence in speaking situations is noticeable and it is something I really admire about both posh school education in this country and also the US education system.

Oh, and Xenia - part of me thinks/would like to think you aren't being serious about the working vs stay at home mothers stuff? Have you stopped to consider that not everyone wants to work in finance (which is the industry in which I assume you work?), regardless of whether or not they are capable? I say this as someone who does work in this field - I spent my 20s working until 3am in the City and being sent home in taxis on expenses. I'm not sure I'd do it again if I was given the chance. In fact, I'd probably become a harp teacher, and and go live on a small holding while home educating DTs and living off our homegrown apples

Russian - here on MN and in the Real World I often feel that my children aren't like the children of the people that I am engaging. So guilty as charged.

Apparently some parents think that my kids are going to burn out from the academic pressure. Why? Because their kids wouldn't be able to handle it. And since their kids are really bright neither can mine .

Sorry very belatedly I want to say how sensible and eloquent Teacher's posts are. You will never know. None of us will ever know. Comparisons even within the same school with different children are meaningless. I think what we can all agree on is that we want our children to be happy and reach their potential, via whatever route. What sometimes irks both sides on these threads is an implication that those that don't use state/private don't want that.
I'm also with Teacher in that I do get irritated by the 'private primaries are two years ahead' (not said by anyone on this thread I hasten to add). I would say that the average child at a private primary is ahead of the average child at a state school. However, a more valid comparison would be between the average child at private primary and the average non-SEN, well-supported child at state. Then the difference might be negligible. My son, like Teacher's, is couple of years 'ahead' (i.e. good level 4s in yr4). Would he be further ahead at private? Who knows, but I'm happy with his progress which seems unhindered by the broad range of abilities in his class. Possibly even encouraged by this broad range.
I also think there can be a conflation between the very top schools (e.g. Winchester) and the average private school. I suspect that some of the very best (usually boys') schools are worth paying for if you've the money. But the gulf between these and the average private is far wider than the gulf between private and state.
So OP, your children will probably be fine wherever. Just make your decision and try to be happy with it and never wonder 'what if'.

IHideVegInRice - can't you just do a list of what experiences you would like to be offered to your children as they go through primary/prep school and then see whether that actually will be offered by the schools you are considering, or by a combination of the schools plus activities and experiences outside of school (which you will have time to organise and co-ordinate and which are available to the general public where you live) and with you as parents? It's not as if school is the only thing that will happen to your children when they are of primary school age...

happy you can't possibly know what people here know or how they know it unless they choose to explain. But you can't really assume ignorance unless what they say purports to be factual and is self-evidently tosh.

Russians I love it when happy tells me my DC must be different from hers and that I want different things from her. It's very funny :)

But MTS, I think that saying that in a patronising way to others when you may have no idea of the merits, demerits, skills, or deficiencies of their kids, is to say the least, unwise.

My children are all 2E so it seems reasonable to assume that they aren't like most other posters' children on MN, they are certainly not like most peoples kids in the real world. And in some ways that's good, in some ways that's bad. But I wouldn't usually say to another person 'my kids aren't like yours' in either a boasty (as in the cases we normally see on MN) or whiney way. Because what's the point - very few of us know much about other peoples' kids in reality, even people we have been acquainted with through the education system for years.

And I expect we will now get about 10 other people saying that their kids are 2E too (you have to or you'd cry, some days)

'my children aren't like yours' or 'I want different things from education than you do'
My DC's are not like your neither is my DH or my DM or my chosen breed dogs or my chosen breed of horses you would probably hate the last two. This is a fact not once have I said any of them are better in fact I believe I've gone out of my to repeatedly state that we are all entitled to our own personal choices,. There are people out there who believe Steiner education is the best and actually Im not totally against it they will give you all sorts of reason as to why its best. I met a fascinating and exceedingly committed group of home eders they too were utterly convinced that there approach to education was the best they have no time for either sector. Both these groups will tell you that their individual DC's are not like mine or yours and in the case of the home eders they were right but like me they never said their DC's were better than mine or yours. They will also tell you that they have different expectations of education from you or me again not necessarily better. Is having a strongly held belief arrogant. I don't think so. I met these home eders and not once did I think they were arrogant. I didn't agree with them there hostility to any formal schools was palpable but I still would never label them up as arrogant. They had a vision of how they thought education should be and they were pursuing it and exceedingly successfully at that including Oxbridge entry. Best of luck to them but I m not about to join them.
We are all entitled to our views we all see things differently and we all have different expectations whether its holidays films education or restaurants. That is what makes human beings so interesting.
AS far as I'm aware MN is a debating form we are all free to brings our views to the table its seems a a shame that when people make comments others don't like some resort to personal accusations of arrogance.

Is 2E their shoe size? Or is it supposed to mean something else???