Selective independants

[poppydoppy]

Do they look better on League tables because the standard of teaching is better or just because they select the children most likely to do well?

And, I presume, not all boarders spend all their time engaged in wholesome activities. The lack of privacy would become unbearable and a riot would surely break out.

yellow I'm sure most of us accept that there are great state schools. I've even heard xenia concede that .

The results of some schools speak for themselves.

But the ugly fact remains that fabulous or not, they can't match the resources of well funded public schools. Again not highly controversial, I wouldn't have thought.

And if you're into the whole boarding thang, then I can see that you'd consider a day school (of any colour) an inferior thing as there's just not as much on offer...

I dunno. Maybe it's the sunshine streaming thorugh my study window, or maybe it's the rather nice email I received this morning from my agent...but I'm failing to see the argument.

Well, my child goes to a school that would not tick many mumsnet boxes. But he does many things that children at happygardening's school do. Because I make them happen. As do many other parents at such schools.

rabbit I'm sure many a boarder sopend the night eating Doritos ...

But to be fair, there is oodles of stuff on offer. Quite breathtaking really. And sometimes I do think that DS is missing a trick...but that Assasin's Creed won't play itsef you know!

Nobody is denying that Winchester has more money than practically anywhere else. Some people are taking issue with the claim that this means that kids attending Winchester therefore automatically get a better academic and all round education than kids going anywhere else. This is clearly not the case so I'm bemused as to why anyone might think it was true unless they (a) refused to recognise anything that didn't coast £30k a year or (b) included snob value as an element of education.

I was very heartened to read copthall's post above, her description of the downsides of posh schools and in particular the entitlement and arrogance issues chime in very much with my own observations of certain fellow students when I was at university and colleagues and professional contacts now.

Well seeker you are clearly far superior to us mere mortals.

I wouldn't know where to even begin! And even if I could source those things, I don't think 'd have the time, energy, cash or inclination!

Sorry, posted too soon. The difference is that she makes them happen by paying 30k. I make them happen by knowing how to access stuff and knowing how the system works. And there lies the inequality. If you have the money it's easy. If you don't, you have to have other stuff to invest in your child. Time, money, knowledge, confidence,privilege.....all the things that many people who use state schools don't have.

And privilege continues to gain more privilege..........

Russians funny how when someone gives an opinion we like it becomes fact...

Wordfactory if your child was at my child's school, believe me, you would.

Where did I say that Copthall's opinion was fact? Nowhere. I said it chimed with my experience. Which it does.

"quoting an alleged 'top' grammar that you apparently rejected for that DS."
So now I am accused of lying as well! It seems to me that when i say something some don't want to hear I'm either lying or claiming to knowledge that no one else has. How bizarre. I dont claim I know that my DS is at a top state school; the top of school in the county its plastered all over their website regularly commented on in letters from the head with the associated links to league tables which as I wouldn't believe everything the man says I've taken the trouble to check (he makes Tony Blair a positive amateur at spin). . Frankly I am underwhelmed by it but thats only my view which is why I frequently put "top performing academy" in quotations. I do have a DS with "moderate" learning difficulties (but who did pass his maths GCSE today something I thought he would never do, we're going to celebrate tonight I'm so proud of him) which anyone in the same position will tell you are poorly met in both sector so this maybe jaundicing my view of it. I would link you into the league tables but would completely out me and I'm not prepared to do that.
For the record I am not anti state ed (read my post at the beginning of this thread) or anti grammar school I have worked in a very well regarded one and again was underwhelmed but then maybe as someone once said to me in a different context (thats another story) "you expect to much" and in fairness I have been underwhelmed by many top independent schools as well.
I work with children and am completely committed to their welfare and would like all children to receive a broad interesting challenging education where their individual needs are being met. I would like expectations to be high for all not "oh well a C will do' I actually believe that this should be offered in the state sector. There will always be those who pay and that fine but I hate it when people feel they have to pay becasue they've no choice.

Well, my child goes to a school that would not tick many mumsnet boxes. But he does many things that children at happygardening's school do. Because I make them happen. As do many other parents at such schools.
seeker you are very lucky to live in an area where you have on offer all that my s has on offer. Sadly although I live in a lovely area we don't have all those resources on offer unless I used the fees to purchase my self a helicopter. Even with a helicopter i doubt i would have the time to wheel him round to all these activities.
"Russians funny how when someone gives an opinion we like it becomes fact..."
word of course it becomes fact becasue although I clearly know nothing about state ed. she and others with similar views know everything about every single independent school out there.

I did say many of the things, happy. Not even my enthusiasm could match your son's school's magnificence!

But back to the opening post .....

Selective schools - whether fee paying or not - will always get better headline results than non selective because they only have exam fodder coming through the gate.

What is extremely debatable is which type of school gets the best out of the top 5% of exam fodder pupils

and it is of course impossible to test because each child only goes to school once
and it is not possible to data match, say, my son and happygardening's son or seekers's son because the socio-economic differences are too extreme.

So we will just have to agree to disagree, do the best for our children and hope that all children are given as good an education as possible for them.

seeker i stick by original post and i genuinely mean it you are exceedingly lucky to live in an area where you have on offer many of the things that my DS has on offer at his school and also have the time to take them. I sadly don't.

Out of interest, how may of the opportunities does your son take advantage of?

He does a surprising number he like me is not a team sports player (he does not have to do any team sports at all at win Coll) this is one of the reasons why his local options are more limited. I looked into it a few years ago when I became disillusioned with his prep and thought about home educating him for a year. I also looked into it when he was offered a place at the "alleged top grammar school" because frankly I am tired of paying. He prefers more niche sports two that are not available in either our county or the next. He does 3-4 other weekly activities another which would never be available locally and only in a few locations nationally and attends 6-7 plays a term and lectures/concerts.
Contrary to what many think I very carefully considered all our options there are plenty of other things I could channel the school fees into including as we are not wealthy e.g. having a bit more of a life for myself God forbid. Eventually logistics opportunities within the school day we like and believe in boarding and one eye on the Ivy league won the day.

Happy, I can see that the 'niche' thing is an issue.

As a comparison, DS (good local comp, technically a secondary modern but in fact outperforms our local independents) in addition to sports / PE within school time, plays:

Team sport 1 (summer): 1 lunchtime, 1 after school, 1 good out of school club in the evening (also attended by many children from local independent) per week.
Team sport 2 (mainly winter): 1 weekend afernoon per week all year +1 evening per week for c. half the year.
Individual 'minority' sport 1: 1 lunchtime, 1 good out of school club (2 in the winter) per week.
Individual minority sport 2: 1 after school club run by an excellent out of school provider, who would also provide out o school club opportunities but time is limited by...
Individual instrument tuition: 1 lesson per week out of school.
Orchestra: 1 after school club per week.
Jazz band: 2 evening sessions (same evening) provided at county level

Can't match the concerts and plays - not DS's thing really, though we do attend a few per year.

DD is younger and less eclectic, preferring to spend between 7 and 9 hours per week at a single (outstanding) local dance school (no similar provision in any local independents - good dancers from whom usually transfer to DD's dance school though tend to be at lower grades than those who have been at the dance school from the beginning) on top of individual instrument tuition, rather than doing a wider range of activities, although I suspect when she transfers to secondary her portfolio of activities will widen.

It is harder work sourcing / maintaining all of these as a state school parent, but I suspect that DS at least would do no more at any other type of school, and DD would not receive such high-quality tuition in her chosen area at an independent.

[Sorry, should clarify - I know that there is at least 1 independent out there with a full-scale dance school attached, and there are obviously the speciaised dance schools like Tring. I meant that DD (who is also extremely academic, hence not considering e.g. vocational dance schools) could not get such good tuition at a 'mainstream' selective independent]

Trouble is, if we don't know what the niche sports are, we don't know whether they are ones we could get to play locally!

My ds certainly does the same number of activities. I suspect they might be of a slightly less high flying nature. But hey ho. Man does not live by real tennis alone.

But the point is he can't play them locally I think I know where you live and he could do one in your area.
As a non team sports player he is exceedingly pleased that he wil never have to grace a rugby pitch again as there are no team sports versus minority sports at Win Coll all sports are viewed the same sport is also not compulsory I think after the first year some do no sport at all.
Sorry to disappoint you seeker no real tennis at Win Coll no beagles either or polo.

I suppose the issue is not how many activties a child does, but if there's enough on offer to suit everyone...even those with niche tastes.

As it happens both my DC have fairly mainstream tastes. Choir, team sports etc. They also both have a lot of outside school commitments (in terms of time, not number of activities)...

But that doesn't mean those niche opportunities are wasted as some seem to be saying. It's lovely to be able to try them out, even if you don't want to take them forward, isn't it?

Folk seem to be trying very hard to convince happy that she's wasting her money. Why? TBH it seems a bit rude, and anyway it's not as if she has access to your schools is it? I mean they might be marvelous from marveldom, but if she doesn't live there...

Wordfactory,

No, I don't think that Happy is wasting her money. Tbh, Winchester is one of the few independent schools I would consider unquestionably 'worth the money', though to be fair I only know ex-scholars, I don't know anyone who was a 'normal' pupil there.

I suppose what i am responding to is the idea that is frequently peddled on threads like this, that the 'broader educational experience' available at indpendent schools cannot be replicated within / around the state sector, or even understood by those of us who use the state sector.

As a kind of 'all in package holiday' equivalent, then of course many independents put together in a convenient single package (though at a cost) a whole range of academic and other opportunities. The 'independent traveller' version adopted by involved state school parents IS harder work - like assembling a holiday from its consituent parts - and some options aren't always available in all places, but a similar, or even better-tailored 'overall experience' CAN be assembled, though at a cost of effort and time...

Funny about real tennis seeker since DS2's best mate is this year's or last year's national champ, and state ed'd.

I don't think happy is wasting her money. I do find her insistence on the practically perfect in every way nature of the school a little tiresome. Particularly as I know a child who is currently utterly miserable there while his parents insist that he is glowing with happiness.