Selective independants

[poppydoppy]

Do they look better on League tables because the standard of teaching is better or just because they select the children most likely to do well?

Yoni Most indepednent schools will have a minimum requirement to stay on to do A levels and will kick out those who don't meet it and many only allowing them to do subjects in the one's they got A's or A*'s in. They will also kick them out if they dont get the required grade at AS level.

I think schools in all sectors massage and manage their league table figures by fair means and foul. In my neice and nephews school they begin their GCSEs early and then keep sitting and resitting until the holy grail of five has been achieved. A torrid experience and one which cynically chases maximum passes at the loss of top grades. And I'm not such a Pollyanna as to think different tactics aren't used at my DCs schools.

happy you approved the description. That approach to History and Eng Lit is clearly exceptional but you do seem to dismiss too readily the idea that any other school, particularly those in the state sector, teach beyond the curriculum and it goes without saying that the staff at the school are going to laud it when speaking to parents shelling out £30K pa. Nevertheless, the fact remains that it doesn't have a monopoly on this sort of approach.

I suppose one of the main differences though, with a school like Winchester, is that the DC essentially live there for periods of time. This must allow for more fluidity, no?

There's a freedom to dip in and out. No sense of class ending as it were.

I think termly boarding must be able to offer somehting that any other school simply can't.

Don't get me wrong, it's not enough to seduce me to it, but I can see that it offers a very different methodology and process.

"happy you approved the description."
Yellow I enjoyed the description although this does not mean I approved it and my reply to seeker was meant to be an obviously unsuccessful amusing retort. The term is not one I would ever use to describe my DS's school in a million years as I probably unlike you and seeker know how it works exceedingly well. Maybe staff are lauding the school when speaking to parents but what would be the point? My DS like most Wykehamists is exceedingly articulate but unlike many boys happy to tell me what goes on in school; some of its good, some of its just plain odd, some of it is funny, and some of it bad, this is inevitable as all parents know, he has no axe to grind. IME experience as someone who works with children there take on something is often completely different from an adults take on it, their views are often more honest. As far as I can see and I don't spend hours interrogating my DS, his experiences of these lessons is pretty similar to the couple of teachers I was talking too. I think we also have to ask ourselves why teachers would "laud it" and by your implication over exaggerate the difference? I don't know about you and the parents at your DC's school but IME parents stumping up £30 000+ a year are pretty savvy and when things don't go the way they want or they're not getting what they think they should be getting and even worse told they would be getting they are pretty quick to complain/vote with their feet so for a teacher to over exaggerate something or make erroneous claims about how something is organised he and his school are heading into very dangerous territory.
yellow I am also fully aware of what goes on in the state sector becasue I have a DS in a state school have worked in one and they do go beyond the curriculum at times, I don't think I said that independent schools and more specifically my DS's school have a monopoly on doing this although even you can't deny that the sheer extra time factor at boarding schools makes this easier. In the past I have looked at less selective independent schools for DS1 and IMO they too were not going beyond the curriculum any more than the local state school my Ds attends in their desperate attempt to get A's out of pupils whose ability meant that they weren't really A material.

happy you don't have a monopoly of knowledge about top independents any more than the top independents have a monopoly on teaching beyond the curriculum, or sparking the intellectual curiosity of its students. There's a real arrogance about this, since you appear to be generalising hugely from your other DS's school which may bear no resemblance to the schools at the top of the league. I completely accept that your DS's independent school is an utterly outstanding school but its general approach is shared by other top schools; the difference lies in the detail. And resources of course. But my view is that the difference made by finance is reflected more in the upkeep of fine buildings and grounds than it is in the quality or approach of teaching and learning. And there's also discernible arrogance about the quality of parents at state schools too, which is a bit off.

I'm not sure about termly boarding providing huge educational benefits per se. There's an argument both ways.

The main benefits of termly boarding are time and teachers on site and available to their pupils. It seems to provide a fairly seamless and fluid education.

I can't see how you can replicate it in a day school.

I agree that it would be difficult, nigh on impossible, to replicate some of the benefits of termly boarding in a day school. However there are clear drawbacks to boarding which are not experienced by day school pupils and families. And I'm not at all sure that these wouldn't outweigh the benefits for most families.

Hang on a minute yellow ....... I've carefully read through what I"ve written although not evry posting i've ever put on MN especially the ones on the dog bit. I've never once said I have a monopoly on knowledge on all top independents but I do know about my Ds's as i am a current parent which I'm assuming your not and therefore don't really know a lot about only what you've read and heard. I have not generalised either "hugeely" either. I am beginning to wonder if you are either unable to read or have problems understanding what I write. You also seem to contradict yourself:" There's a real arrogance about this, since you appear to be generalising hugely from your other DS's school which may bear no resemblance to the schools at the top of the league. I completely accept that your DS's independent school is an utterly outstanding school but its general approach is shared by other top schools; the difference lies in the detail." But then maybe I cant understand what you write. We do have friends with `DS's at other top schools and Im quite surprised at the difference but as you say its in the detail.
Finally I ma also stumped as to why you come across as slightly aggressive I like all on MN am voicing my opinions and experiences which are as valid as yours and i see no reason for your constantly attacking and misquoting/understanding what I've said. You may not like my views, my choice of school or for that matter my choice of dog that is your prerogative. Perhaps you should spend less time attacking me and more time detailing your own experiences which I'm sure are different from mine interesting and equally valid.

happy I've seen significantly more aggressive posts than my own. I wouldn't categorise these posts as aggressive at all.

Some people on MN choose to say what their experience is in every last detail but I don't. I find the frequent assumptions that no one on these threads can know anything about any school other than their child's rather silly. You're correct in saying that I don't currently have a child of my own at the school we're discussing though.

If you want to be semantic, then I perhaps should have said that your DS's school is one of several outstanding schools. They tower above most of the rest, which makes them stand out. I was really just acknowledging what everyone knows: it's an excellent school. But it's simply not alone in the way it achieves what it undoubtedly achieves and that's something you appear to be blinkered about.

Opinions may be equally valid but incorrect statements purporting to be fact of course won't be as valid as a correct statement of fact.

Russians I agree.

DS is a day boy at his school. That is his choice and mine.

But I can see that the education he receives is not quite as extensive as the termly boarders around him. It would be disingenuous of me to say otherise.

That said, we're happy as we are .

TBH yellow you are coming across as a tad grumpy!

It's only MN. Nothing rests or falls on it yanno .

Happy You and others - you are certainly not alone - have a habit of disparaging the parents at non independent schools. You personally also have an unhappy habit of disparaging the education offered at the top grammar schools, continually claiming it can't possibly be as good as that offered at your DSs school, quoting an alleged 'top' grammar that you apparently rejected for that DS. You also frequently cite your other DS's comp as a 'top state school' although a glance at the league tables could tell you that however good of a comp it is, it cannot be one of the 'top state schools' by results since those are all grammars. This does come across as arrogant.

Note - I am not saying a comp cannot be a top state school all in all. I am firmly of the belief that my old school (comp) is the best school in the country, but that isn't just based on the results (good though they are) since they are not as good as the results of a whole load of grammar schools (including the one attended by my DD1).

word I'm not sure the tone of my posts ever suggests that I think something may rest or fall on MN. I'm pretty chirpy today too.

I had been just about to ask you word, do the results of the boarders regularly trump those of the day schoolers or not?

Yellow It's just the way you're like a terrier with happy. You give the impression that it matters to you that she admit she's wrong.

I mean, it's her opinion that a state school, no matter how sooper-de-dooper, can't replicate what a a termly boarding public school can do.

And given any state school can't compete on time, space and money, there's probably something in that, no? Seems fairly uncontroversial to me...

Do you know yellow I don't know!

I suspect the Chinese students get top marks. And yes they're boarding, but they might get 'em anyways.

But the marks are pretty good regardless, and even if there were a definite spike for the termlies DS wouldn't go for it. Not his cuppa at all.

But Word kids aren't coming away from those schools better qualified than all state school kids, and they don't all go to better universities or get better jobs than all state school kids. The one thing they definitely have over all state school kids - the one single thing - is the snob value. And that is nothing to do with education or academic talent or achievement.

Being over-engineered doesn't necessarily mean being better. I don't know what Yellow's issue is, but mine is that she continues to peddle her schtick that 'top grammars' aren't all that. And that you get a better class of parent at independent schools. Neither viewpoint is accurate.

True Russians. An A is an A is an A. But there's a hell of a lot more to an education than that, no?

All that stuff you can learn and enjoy that has absolutley no impact on exam results or university destinations. Surely that stuff is worth something? Surely we're not that reductive?

And all I'm saying, and I think all yellow is saying, is that it's that stuff that a school like Winchester, where kids and teachers live on site, get so much of.

I mean, when DS is at home playing Assasins Creed and eating his body weight in Doritos, the termlies are getting all manner of opportunities.

I suppose it's a bit like the students who stay at home with parents and only go to uni for lecture and tutorials. Are they having a good education? Yes. Is it the same as those living on site? Probably not. Does it matter? Probably not in the grand scheme of things.

I was trying not to mention any particular contingent word :)

I'm not in the least bothered about happy admitting anything and it's great that she likes her school; very few wouldn't. But it certainly gets tedious to hear how her school does something as ordinary as going beyond the curriculum as though it's patented the idea. I think happy is not in a position to compare, so perhaps she shouldn't.

I'm not sure why it is that MN parents at top state schools seem able to accept that Westminster, St. Pauls, Winchester etc. are fabulous schools but that the parents at those schools can't seem to give top state schools the respect they're probably due, especially given the struggles with resources. I suppose it's because they're paying out massive fees so assume those fees must be buying a lot; I can't figure out what else it could be.

Well I am a buyer of an indie education for my DDs, and though it is in top 10 I do not think we bought better results for them. They have not done better than peers of similar ability at the local outstanding comps and sixth form colleges, nor come to that have the DDs who managed to get into the "top" 3% who gained admission to the grammar. I picked the school because we weren't offered a place at an outstanding local comp and it was the one the DDs wanted to go to. They have obviously gained from the facilities and opportunities that the school is able to offer but they have frequently been frustrated by the narrow mindedness and sense of entitlement amongst their peers at the school, whose confidence frequently strays across the border into arrogance and exclusivity, sometimes it has felt that they were fighting a rearguard action to maintain the values of inclusivity and caring we have encouraged in them.

My take on the point mooted in the middle of the thread - about some schools being able to deliver way and above the curriculum - would be this:

Most independents and selective state schools, as well as many comprehensives, do deliver an education which goes beyond the curriculum/the minimum/just results because, quite simply, the children they have are much easier to teach the curriculum/exam syllabi to and so they have more time and energy left to deliver other things.

Sure, the independents also have the facilities (not in ds's school's case - their facilities are not as good as many of the local state schools, but then he's not there for the facilities), the extra money and, in the case of the very best schools in both sectors, their pick of excellent staff. But I think you can't overlook the different levels of energy, commitment and resources required to get good 'results' out of one cohort compared to another, making it nigh on impossible for some schools to provide anything like the same kind of overall experience.

It's like when the specialist schools idea first happened. Overwhelmingly, in our county, the 'best' schools with the best results were the first to choose a specialism with the attendant extra funding. As one of their Heads was heard to say, it was quite easy for them to dedicate time and effort to put in their specialism application when they didn't have discipline, learning and high staff turnover issues to concentrate on.

Word Given the other comments I have made on this thread in the last couple of hours, and on other threads since time immemorial, clearly I don't think that results are all there is to education, no. However I don't think that the other aspects of education are necessarily any better served by posh schools than by good state schools with engaged parents.

Word And you should perhaps consider that not all non-boarders spend all their time sitting at home playing assassins creed and eating their body weight in Doritos. :)