Selective independants

[poppydoppy]

Do they look better on League tables because the standard of teaching is better or just because they select the children most likely to do well?

But she hasn't said it's perfect. She's said it's perfect for her son! She's conceded it wouldn't suit everyone.

I would have thought the sheer amount of opportunities he gets there given a. the resources and b. the amount of time he spends there are more than any of us could manage ourselves without a tardis.

It's okay to admit that, isn't it?

I for one don't feel remotely bad about admitting it!

Absolutely teacher: Winchester, Westminster, St. Paul's - I'd have had mine go there like a shot, even though geographically we've been very lucky, state school wise.

But I'm not quarrelling about the extra lectures or the plays, it's this misinformed notion that on the main event, the academic education, state schools are so narrow in their vision and aspiration that they don't go way beyond the call of the exam specifications and enthuse their students. I accept that spending £30k makes a parent more suggestible to perceived advantage, but the other sector at its best is able to meet Winchester and the like on a significant stretch of that front. The fee paying parents may not like it, but nevertheless it's so.

word I repeat it and repeat it: it's a fabulous school. But happy appears not able to brook the suggestion that there are rivals, costing £30k less.

And Copthall yet again, absolutely. A significant advantage of state education: the lack of unmerited self worth inflation.

The broad spectrum of sports isn't actually available to all children at indy's though. DS's school offers: tennis, real tennis, table tennis, squash, badminton, swimming, archery, golf, fencing, cricket, football, hockey, rugby, athletics, rowing, and probably a host of other things. DS would have loved to have tried his hand at a wide variety but as a sporty lad who is in the first XI for football and cricket, was first X1 for hockey but had to chose between it and football and first XV rugby, he has not actually been given the opportunity to do the other more varied stuff. On occasion he has felt this sucks. The good sportsmen are pushed to the sports the school wants to excel at rather than the sports they would like to have a go at. Having said that we still think every penny had been worthwhile.

Of interest dd went to a top 100 comp in yr 7 and yr 8. I could not criticise the school's academic offer but the appetite to deal with disgraceful and disruptive behaviour was non existent. There was a hard core of 6-8 children who appeared to be above sanction and who were diluting the enjoyment and immeasurable achievement of the majority. That is why we tranferred her and are happy to pay every penny for a mid league independent school which is not hugely selective but where she is much happier and better able to focus in lessons because there is zero tolerance to that sort of behaviour - and yes girls are expelled if they cannot behave. That, in my opinion, for the sake of the majority is as it should be and I would be happier to pay an extra penny in tax to facilitate it.

yellow may I suggest that you spend some money in either reading lessons or comprehension less

married makes a good point that not only can a school (in any sector) push dc into certain things that they excel at, precluding other activities, but often the very excellent choices on offer cannot help but clash with one another, sometimes resulting in fewer choices than at first glance.

Ds is neither sporty (at least team sports) nor musical, but there are still a wide range of activities available to him at his school.

However, all the things he wants to do are all on the same night: he would like to do sailing, art club, drama, badminton and something else I can't remember. These all fall on the same evening.

Posted too soon. And meant to also say: that this can also happen whether you are at a state or independent school or trying to arrange your activities out of school.

Although yellow some parents pay for exactly that - it's called confidence
"unmerited self worth inflation" and it can be what a child gets from a private school which does them the most good in life (although if you are utterly useless and don't realise you won't of course last long in most jobs).

Yellow I considered mentioning about the Real Tennis champ! There are also national gymnastics and chess champs at the moment, I seem to recall.

My DD doesn't do sport, although she goes to the gym with me most weekends. Her SEN condition means she is crap at most of the wide variety on offer but she has a deal with the PE staff that so long as she runs around for most of the lesson being active they don't mind if she isn't anywhere near the action (and she isn't). This was before she got injured obviously. :(

In terms of activities though - she does four instruments to a very high standard (one of which is exceedingly niche, and which she to be fair doesn't learn in school although she will be leading a group of players once she is in the 6th form). She has between 4 and 5 lessons a week, in and out of school, some of them >1 hour, and she plays her first study instrument in a national ensemble. She has additional lessons from an international level tutor on her first study instrument. Apart from the international level tutor, her music teachers all teach at the independent as well as the state schools. She does all the usual choir, jazz band, clubs, orchestra, festivals stuff too. On top of that she goes to a very well respected theatre group at weekends (well attended by kids from the local independent schools) and she certainly goes to or performs in > 20 concerts/plays a year. In the national ensemble it is true that many of the other kids/young people go to (or went to) independent schools - but by no means all of them.

DS does much much less but he could do as much if he wanted to. DD2 is only at primary but she does way more (at a younger level) mainly because she is a nutter. We will have to cut down on her performing activities when she goes to secondary school, I think. Her contemporaries in her out of school activities are again mainly, though not all, at independent school.

I have no doubt that the extra curricular activities at most independent schools are great. I object to the fallacy that kids at state schools cannot access the same level of opportunity if their parents are prepared and able to pay and facilitate it.

The other question which has occurred to me (why I haven't really considered it before now is beyond me) is that it would be interesting to see a league table considering only those children whose parents' / true guardian's main residence is in the same country as the school (or, at a minimum, in the UK).

Although the position of the selective day independent schools would not change, and nor I suspect would the very top boarding schools by very much, I suspect it would be interesting to see how the results of the middling boarding schools are affected by the removal from the figures of e.g. Chinese students.

As no grammar / comprehensive schools are in a position to run marketing tours abroad to bring in high-flying students from elsewhere, it would make the comparisons a little more transparent.

[Muses - same exercise would also be interesting for universities]

What exactly have I failed to comprehend happy?

Confidence is great in its place Xenia, but surely it has to be based on something worthwhile as opposed to simply having attended St. Cakes?

Ordinary tennis champ too Russians . And DD3 as an ex pupil is nearly a blue (well she's on the university team of a predominately male sport - a total cheat and maddening to the other DDs).

teacherwith2kids
you are probably right :
its like I've asked the BBC to do a league table of the top 50 kids at each secondary - so that non selectives suddenly become selective.
No political will though : not even from the Guardian!
and the data is there just not on the full public websites

universities and overseas students is trickier : when I was at Uni many moons ago the Hong Kong engineers were an integral part of the faculty - it depends on whether they are being admitted for financial or academic reasons

Xenia I know at least one of your DDs went to a similar school to my DDs and I am not talking about confidence, I am talking about arrogance and a sense of entitlement and some really extreme attention seeking behaviour from DDs who seek to dominate the group norms, sometimes with a very unhealthy obsession about looking and behaving in a certain way, and exclude others. Confidence and assertiveness preclude illusions of superiority and do not preclude having values that encompass empathy, understanding and care for others. Qualities and values that I am sure you appreciate will stand my DDs in good stead in their chosen careers. I am fairly sure that these DDs behave the way they do because they have been made to feel insecure by parents who measure their success by what school they get into and who they know and party with. It is actually very sad.

yellow may I suggest that you spend some money on either reading lessons or comprehension lessons. I have at least twice this afternoon stated quite clearly that I accept that many state schools do go beyond the curriculum provide extra curricular activities and heaven knows what else but I think even you have to accept that many don't. I have personal experience of the state sector as I've worked in a grammar and send my DS to a comp and neither provide even a third of the opportunities and in my experience go beyond the curriculum to the extent I would like them too. Where I live there are no state schools be they comp or grammar that provide remotely the amount, or the right of extra curricular activities I was looking for, or the breadth of education I wanted my DS to receive and as I've already said till its frankly becoming boring there are many "top indies" who in my view don't either. I have the money and as his interests are not only not available on my doorstep they are not available in Smalltowmsville/my nearest biggish city/county or even not always in the next county. I am lucky to have enough money to choose a school that I believe is right for my DS. Oh and let's not forget I was advised on at least three occassions that my DC would be better off in the independent sector the last time I was given this advise by a teacher at our local comp was two years ago!
As already said above no where have I said its perfect maybe some on MN know of a perfect school (free of course) and your DC's are fortunate enough to go to it but I don't know of any in either sector. I have choosen school that fits him and us as a family. When I detail how they do things it's never to say its because this is the best way or the right way or the only way to do something I do it because sometimes it does things differently and maybe it might interest others and show that there is another way of achieving something. So for example Eng Lit is not studied at IGCSE and contrary to what many think it does not have a detrimental impact on their Pre U results or university entries (a thread recently on MN) ditto only studying three Pre U's/A levels instead of four another recent MN thread.

seeker I'm sure you know of a boy who is absolutely miserable there, at work I regularly come into contact with boys and girls who are utterly miserable at many top indies and at state grammars and comps parents are often indenial and ignore our advise to move them if posible. But I also regularly come into contact with children who are blissfully happy at top indies state comps and grammars some even have parents who for some unknown reason believe they are not.
Education is not black and white, although I feel it's becoming increasingly samish we all have a different agenda and therefore have different expectations and want different things. You're all hopefully with your choices and I'm happy with mine I sincerely hope that your choices live up to your expectations because that is after all all that matters.

That merits an applause emoticon Copthall. Very, very familiar to me too.

In fact I find the stuff you say which I didn't know about Hist and Eng Lit etc. very interesting happy but it may be you who needs to perfect the art of close reading (many thanks for the suggestion though but I may have more pressing demands on my money): I have zero interest in claiming that my DCs' school is the best in either sector because that would be a nonsense and I can't imagine for a moment it would claim it for itself. It's certainly innovative and amenable to adaptation, usually ahead of when it's required rather than trailing. The only thing I find ridiculous is this closed mind of yours, that your school has a magic which is nowhere reproduced in either sector. It's based on insufficient knowledge clearly but it's nonetheless arrogant that you can't be arsed to go out there and learn. Ironic really.

As Winchester is as representative of independent schools as my catchment school is of state schools could you two quit bickering and widen the argument.

Happygardening : you say you have experience of other schools
how do you thing the schools your sons are not at cope with their top 5%?

Yellowtip: what would you suggest be done to allow the top 5% in all schools to achieve that to which they should be entitled?

I'd suggest hoiking the top 5% out into a school all on their own, obviously.

I'm going to make an interesting observation. DS was offered a very nice academic scholarship at Winchester for 6th form. We, the parents, thought the school was amazing and the way they handled us and dealt with everything was second to none. DS refused it because he was so happy where he was even though the 6th form options meant he had to be broad and could not focus on his absolute strengths. We were very uncomfortable with his decision at the time.

Half way through L6 his focus changed; he decided he loved a subject(s) he had not been committed to and passionate about for the previous five to seven years. He was expected to do x and it was regarded as something as a certainty. He has a place at uni to read a subject for which he was not awarded the scholarship. Funny how things turn out and how important it is to let the young men and women make their own decisions. We would not, in a million years, have forecast this.

I must admit that I'm not convinced many schools of any sector can deal that appropriately with the top 5%. As I said downthread, I'm not convinced a girl in that category would be well served by DD's school. And, would the use of funds needed to accommodate the odd one be justified? I dunno.

You need enough of em to make it work!

Nobody has yet satisfactorily explained to me why it's a good idea to hoik the top 5, 10,15 or 25% out and educate them in a different school. I am slightly persuaded that there is an argument for education the top 2%- those who are so bright that it almost amounts to an additional educational need. But what possible advantage can there that is powerful enough to outweigh the disadvantages of separating off a larger number?

Talkin For a start:

1. Abolish the EBACC
2. Abolish the performance tables in their current form
3. Abolish the national curriculum
4. Encourage schools to teach kids to their ability not to their age
5. Get universities much more involved in outreach to schools
6. Facilitate ability rather than age related learning by establishing school 'clusters' so that critical mass can be achieved across all subjects at the very top of the range
7. Set basic attainment requirements for English, maths and MFL and then leave it up to schools, school clusters, and the involved universities
8. Make more use of things like online classrooms
9. Do the G&T stuff in school time not at weekends so it doesn't seem like a chore

10. Stop being obsessed with science.

I went to a selective independent school and have been around it a bit since I left.

I felt that the top 5% were adequately supported. I don't think many of the most intelligent cohort could have achieved higher grades than they did. I feel that the results were largely down to the selective nature rather than because of the quality of the teaching.

You hoik them out at age 5 in our case because you want the standard of the class to be a high one so the children enjoy school with only other bright children and then everything else seems to be done to a high level too. It seems to work well for bright children and helps ensure the lazy ones follow the herd - the herd just about all doing well. If the herd is leaving school at 16 to do tourism then lazy bright ones may take that option or pick up awful regional accents which will hold them back in many careers or whatever one might be seeking to avoid.

Confidence is a huge booster for most people and there will be shy children at all schools but I do think some independent schools help foster it.

Were the precludes the wrong way round on this or am I just tired? "Confidence and assertiveness preclude illusions of superiority and do not preclude having values that encompass empathy, understanding and care for others. Qualities and values that I am sure you appreciate will stand my DDs in good stead in their chosen careers.." I thought the point being made back to me was that confidence etc did preclude good things. If not then of course I agree - confidence can be good and you can have it with empathy too. Of course we will all agree that if a child is useless and thick as a plank but thinks it is the bee's knees although even then it may do better with women and in getting jobs through life it may find its ability to obtain an entry to things does not mean the career/impression of said wife is sustained once the true colours are known I suppose. And some are born confident or so it seems.

Yellowtip
Which top 5% would you drag into a different school?
Mathematicians / Linguists / Athletes / Artists
those who are top 5% for some of those but only top 15% for the others ....
which is why I like seeker would rather all schools were open to all pupils and setting actively used

Russians
I utterly agree with you about clustering.
DH has been involved in University outreach for 13 years : its good but in no way a panacea
and sorry but the Arts will not save us from Climate change - only science will

wordfactory
your point is partly handled by the clustering / federating idea (which is actually one that DH and I discussed a couple of months ago at one of our strategy meetings dinners out)