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Original poster

my son is being punished for our religious stance

302 replies

LiloLils · 09/04/2013 03:43

...this is a bold statement but its how I feel.

There isn't any point to my post but the subject is keeping me awake so thought it might help to write it down on a public forum and see if I'm not the only one who is saddened by this.

Basically my DH and I are non religious. I was brought up catholic and he was brought up church of England but somewhere along the line we both lost our faith and sided with reason. Myself particularly...I have a bit of a problem with organised religion. there are personal reasons for this.

Long story short. If we stick to our guns and don't get our boy christened into either Catholicism or church of England, he is going to have to attend the worst school in the borough.

It just really angers me. Why in this day and age do we have to jump through hoops, lie about our beliefs, and subject our children to learning fairy tales as fact, in order to get them into a "good" school?

I have never been so torn about a decision in my life. I'm being pressured by family and friends to get him christened just to get him into a good school. They make me feel guilty by saying things like "do it for your child. I'd do anything for my child...wouldn't you?" It just feels all wrong.

OP posts:
OneLittleToddleTerror · 10/04/2013 09:42

lilolils you said "I haven't really met anyone with the same outlook as me. They all seem to be happy with pretending they are religious. Which is beyond me. Everyone I've spoken to just accepts it and made me think I am the one in the wrong for questioning it!!"

I question it, I think it is wrong. I think it's totally unfair all taxpayers money paid to fund these schools and they are allowed selective admission. What if we say we fund a NHS hospital but the French (or Chinese or Jews) have priority? There'd be an outcry.

But on the other hand, I think your friends might be more I-don't-care about religion. I'm not an avowed atheist. I simply don't think god exists. I feel as strongly about him as I feel about the myth of santa claus. So I don't feel conflicted about having to pretend to go to church and admire the stained glass. It's just like taking your child to kumon maths and hopefully getting a better education. Or going to a waterbabies class every weekend. How about just looking at it this way?

Tau · 10/04/2013 09:49

Lilo, of course I don't know how bad that non-religious school is, but I would not advice you to send your child to a religious school if you and your husband are staunch atheists.
In those schools, god/bible and all that are presented as true and of incredible importance. That's why the schools are religious - you know that and you cannot blame them for that.
But it sounds to me as if in your home, your child would be getting the opposite message - even disapproval of religion.

So your kid would come home proudly with work, religious cards, and with stories about things that you consider to be wrong.
And then what?
Are you going to lie/pretend to your child like you'd do to the school and act as if you are just as pleased as he is with his religious achievements? Or are you going to tell him that his teacher is talking rubbish?

The lying to the school thing only works well if you honestly don't care what your child is being taught for religion. If it matters to you and is even a bit emotional, which seems to be the case, I think it is not good for your child to go to that religious school.

As for 'bad schools' - go check that school out and see what impression you get. My son's secondary school was supposed to be a bad school - low OFSTED grading and a bad reputation in the area- but we liked the atmosphere, and he went anyway. He had a great time, no bullying, and his GCSE grades are almost all A and A*.

tiggytape · 10/04/2013 09:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Tau · 10/04/2013 09:55

Moving house is really not an option? Like... moving out of London? Houses are much cheaper virtually everywhere else!
Or, like OneLittleToddleTerror mentioned, you could home-ed your child for the time being. Or for always. Wink

QuintessentialOHara · 10/04/2013 09:58

"Church schools, specifically catholic schools, in my opinion, are guilty of indoctrinating children. " Not sure what you base this opinion on if you have no experience.

mummytime · 10/04/2013 10:00

We have an Outstanding secondary school near me with fabulous exam results. It is not religious.
If you live more than about 400 metres away at most you will "most probably" not get in; unless you are a military family. It is funded by tax payer money, and most other schools (including the very good and popular ones) have furthest distances of at least 2 or more miles.

Op how old is your child? If possible I would plan to move to somewhere where there is a real choice of schools. I would also visit all these schools, because I have known schools everyone fight to get into, which were not as good as their reputation. I have known other schools which have been rated 3 by OFSTED but are now fabulous places to go to.

OneLittleToddleTerror · 10/04/2013 10:01

tau I tell DD her nativity picture is very nice looking. Just as I took her to see Santa groto. I'll tell her the tooth fairy exists. There's no conflict if you don't believe in either.

FWIW, I went to a catholic school, then later a Presbyterian school. My parents are non-believers. They never tell me Jesus exists at home. I don't remember I ever believed they existed. I probably stopped believing when I stopped beliving in fairies and santa.

OneLittleToddleTerror · 10/04/2013 10:05

BTW, I'm not in London and I'm in the catchment of one ofsted outstanding CoE school. It has the standard village admission criteria of catchment children first. The next closest, but out of catchment, non religious school (with a good ofsted) took in children from just over 2 miles according to the LEA website.

So I'm just talking hypothetically what I would do. As we are lucky outside of London to actually be able to go to the local school.

kerala · 10/04/2013 10:07

It is shocking OP shocking. When I looked into it I could not believe it. Especially as the faith schools are largely tax payer funded. Its a historical anomalie that is too complicated for any government to bother to unpick. Happened to see a programme Richard Dawkins did and this came up. Must say I agree with him about "Christian" or "atheist" children how can children be said to have such complex beliefs from birth? You wouldn't talk about Socialist children or Conservative children it doesn't make any sense and is very discriminatory against tax payers.

We moved out of London (were going to anyway) and chose our house carefully across the road from a decent community school. Friends in the next road along were just out of catchment for our school so had to attend the Catholic school. They weren't happy about it but the school is fine. However they are having a nightmare now as the admission criteria puts any Catholic child in the world ahead of siblings so its likely their second child wont get in and my friend will be faced with getting two under 6s to different schools every morning. This is a woman who does so much in the community helping other peoples kids and this is how she gets treated grrr!

kerala · 10/04/2013 10:07

Oh and I would have no compunction about playing a system that is inherently mad. And I am the ultimate rule following goody two shoes.

Original poster
LiloLils · 10/04/2013 10:08

Quintessential...just a quick answer as I have no time. I went to a catholic primary and my secondary school was catholic and run by nuns. Also went to catholic college. So yes, I have experience. And quite unpleasant experiences at that.

OP posts:
seeker · 10/04/2013 10:15

What do you tell your child about your religious beliefs if you only go to church for "a sit down and a school place"?

tiggytape · 10/04/2013 10:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Oblomov · 10/04/2013 10:17

Why are you SO adamant that you won't move.
There are no easy answers to your Q. Move or teach them at home. or what? what do you suppose the other alternatvies are? There aren't any. So send your children to the local school.
What else do you want us to say?

QuintessentialOHara · 10/04/2013 10:20

Lilo - Understand your reluctance. Our experience is different.

But I do think that CofE schools caters for a less strict and rigorous religious aspect, and many people are "lightweights".

OneLittleToddleTerror · 10/04/2013 10:20

seeker what do you tell your preschool child about santa claus? Or the easter bunny? We are talking about primary here.

tiggytape · 10/04/2013 10:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DioneTheDiabolist · 10/04/2013 10:31

Lilo, has the change in your circumstances which lead to you returning to your mum's house effected your confidence? I only ask because at the minute you sound quite fatalistic and sure of two things:

  1. You will not be moving in the next 4 years and
  2. The non-faith school will not get better.

Everything changes, but my impression is that you no longer feel in control of your life and your worries about schooling in 4years time are a manifestation of this.Sad

Tau · 10/04/2013 10:34

OneLittleToddleTerror Wed 10-Apr-13 10:01:19

tau I tell DD her nativity picture is very nice looking. Just as I took her to see Santa groto. I'll tell her the tooth fairy exists. There's no conflict if you don't believe in either.

I know, Onelittletoddlerterror. You aren't bothered about these things - like many other people - and then it obviously doesn't matter.
But I got the distinct impression that Lilo cares quite a lot, and that religion is a sensitive topic to her, and then it DOES matter!

Original poster
LiloLils · 10/04/2013 10:50

Oblomov: as I stated in the OP..." There isn't any point to my post but the subject is keeping me awake so thought it might help to write it down on a public forum and see if I'm not the only one who is saddened by this." I wasn't asking anyone for a definitive answer. If you don't have anything else to say, you can leave the thread. Thanks for your input.

Dione...how insightful. Recently my partner was made redundant and has had to go bankrupt. I do not have a job as I stay at home with baby. My partner is working again but money is very tight. We can barely pay my mum rent. Moving is definitely not an option. Besides, we live in a lovely area, where I was brought up. It's a beautiful family home. The only downside is this bloody school thing!!!!

OP posts:
Oblomov · 10/04/2013 11:09

you can leave the thread. Thanks for your input Shock

tiggytape · 10/04/2013 11:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
LiloLils · 10/04/2013 11:35

Sorry I shouldn't have bitten at your comment. I just found it to be a bit rude and it was knee jerk reaction. Not feeling well so I have a short fuse. Blush

OP posts:
Oblomov · 10/04/2013 11:42

O.k. OP.
Thanks Tiggy.
I do totally understand. See my first post showed that I am currently waiting for a school result for ds2 and know what the shortfall on places is. This does not affect me THAT much because I get ds2 in (I HOPE)under ds1 already being at the catholic school.
But as I said the shortfall is predicted at atleast 3/4 of a million , for this september, and will only get worse.
I can only see you going to local school or home educating. Maybe later is best for you.
I see no other choices.

Spero · 10/04/2013 12:13

The absolute scandal is that those with money can move and play the system - there is an outstanding primary in Brixton which was about a 1/4 mile from my flat but a lot of the children there had very wealthy parents who rented a house on the school doorstep and then moved back to Clapham once their child got in, and then siblings would have priority. This the catchment area for that school shrank to a few hundred yards.

I think every child ought to be able to walk to a decent school. But fat chance of that as there aren't enough schools, even 'bad' ones.

So I do feel for you op, but a lot can happen in four years so dont panic now.