my son is being punished for our religious stance

[LiloLils]

...this is a bold statement but its how I feel.

There isn't any point to my post but the subject is keeping me awake so thought it might help to write it down on a public forum and see if I'm not the only one who is saddened by this.

Basically my DH and I are non religious. I was brought up catholic and he was brought up church of England but somewhere along the line we both lost our faith and sided with reason. Myself particularly...I have a bit of a problem with organised religion. there are personal reasons for this.

Long story short. If we stick to our guns and don't get our boy christened into either Catholicism or church of England, he is going to have to attend the worst school in the borough.

It just really angers me. Why in this day and age do we have to jump through hoops, lie about our beliefs, and subject our children to learning fairy tales as fact, in order to get them into a "good" school?

I have never been so torn about a decision in my life. I'm being pressured by family and friends to get him christened just to get him into a good school. They make me feel guilty by saying things like "do it for your child. I'd do anything for my child...wouldn't you?" It just feels all wrong.

The irony is that, of the friends and colleagues I have known who profess and actively practise a Christian faith, only two of them attend a RC or CofE church. Almost all the others were attending baptist, evangelical or other free churches. Yet those children would not receive much priority at the faith school whose admission criteria I posted up-thread.

That Richmond website has a really good section explaining exactly what faith schools are under FAQs.

Feel half tempted to join them myself, even though we are nowhere near!

I'm really trying not to descend into sarcasm, seeker but you are making it difficult. It is possible to enter a building - a church, say - without having a set of beliefs. Many tourists go to St. Paul's Cathedral. They aren't all believers. Many people go to services at Easter or Christmas, because they feel it's traditional and a nice thing to do. They aren't necessarily believers. Many people are simply curious and aren't really sure what they believe. At my own CofE church, there is a range of belief, from one self-proclaimed "6-day atheist" to vaguely spiritual searchers to those who are committed Christians. Astonishingly, we don't all think the same.

My point is that it is not necessary to believe before you enter a church. Any priest will tell you that. All are welcome.

You clearly know nothing about this, seeker, and are instead projecting your own prejudices about religion. You have offered no suggestions to the OP and instead get very personal and insulting to me. Desist.

Of course it's possible to enter a Church without being a believer.

But I don't think "I like looking at stained glass windows" will satisfy the admissions criteria for a faith school!

The child is six months old he isn't being punished in anyway ... who knows what the situation will be by the time he is ready to start school It could be an academy by then or mum could open her own free school round the corner. It's a bit silly to make such emotive statements. Sorry

While of course anyone is very welcome to attend church, Baptism is a Sacrament where you are making promises to God on your child's behalf,it's not just a box ticking exercise and you should sincerely believe what you're saying,otherwise it does seem to be hypocritical.
We are RC but my DC have attended Cof E schools,at primary level because it was the closest. At high school level there was no RC school nearby but I wanted to choose a school with a Christian ethos,to me it is important that Christianity is part of everyday life.
The school will admit anyone of any faith and gives priority to children living nearby,regardless of any faith.Only if oversubscribed do they start to look at commitment to faith to select pupils they feel would get the most from attending the school with a family who values and will support the school's principles.
I think the problem in a lot of schools is demand for places,no school can guarantee a place for every child who applies and at some point they may need to impose some selection criteria,if not on religious grounds then on distance from school etc, it's not necessarily fair but someone is inevitably going to have an application rejected and be disappointed.

You must live in a town. All the Cof E schools that I know are in villages, the only school and no one has to attend church or be christened - the fact they live in the catchment area is top priority. Of course if they live outside the catchment, and it is oversubscribed, then they would need to 'jump through hoops'.
I wouldn't get a child christened if I didn't believe in it- I don't see how you can make the promises. Taking to church is different- he might like it(he might not).

Hello everyone. Just to let you know I've been reading with much interest. I haven't been posting because I've come down with a particularly nasty virus (punishment from god, perhaps??

Didn't mean to start any arguments although I'm aware that of course people feel strongly about this subject. There have been some really interesting thoughts and practical advice so thank you.

I know my son is only a baby and a few of you think I'm over reacting but it was just the whole "if you haven't christened him before 6 months you've ruined his chances" thing that scared me.

I don't pretend to know much about ofsted reports and so some of the comments have been helpful in that they have made me feel more calm about the 3 grade. I still think its unfair that I should have to pick the poorer school over the outstanding one just based on whether I attend church. But not much can be done about that. I just need to decide whether to attend the c of e church once a month in order to get him into the c of e school. I've decided definitely not to go for the catholic school. I can't bring myself to attend church every week and lick the priest's arse.

To be honest I don't think I can do either. The hypocrisy is just to much to bear. I went to the local c of e church the other day. I thought I'd just see what it was like. The doors were locked!! How very welcoming and Christian. I kind of took it to be a sign. In response to Whistle...I thought it might be nice to sit in a calm and tranquil place, the hustle and bustle of central London can be too much sometimes and I just thought it'd be nice for some peace and quiet. But the locked doors soon put an end to that.

I've loads more to say on the subject but I feel like crap so I have to go. I'll keep reading with much interest though...

Sign of the times sadly, they can't leave it unlocked without volunteers to supervise and they can't get volunteers. It is a London problem. You can live in a village and be atheist, Hindu whatever and get a place.

I wouldn't be put off by the locked door. Churches have to be locked or they get vandalised.

But in order to get into a very popular church school you will have to do more than pay lip service once a month.

If the school is very oversubscribed going twice a month won't be enough- you need to get actively involved. I would try other avenues.

Op is in central london.
The schools are very oversubscribed and apparently there are going to be more and more children without a school place AT ALL in central london, and SW London and Surrey, next year and the year after and so on. Apparently.
I am waiting to get ds2 into school this sept. And I think the shortfall was estimated at 600,000-750,000 less plcces than children this year.
Aparently it is going to get worse and worse. I think I have seen the prediction figures on one of the threads on primary entry.

Op, you really do need to consider this carefully.

Branchingout you could get involved locally. If you look at the news section you will see that there is growing interest in what happened in Richmond.

Accord accordcoalition.org.uk/ are a national coalition of religious groups, humanists, teachers, trade unionists, educationalists and civil rights activists, working together for inclusive education. And they are keen to encourage similar local initiatives accordcoalition.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Local-schools-for-open-communities-guide-FINAL.docx

The admission policy for the c of e school is as follows:

Priority will be given to looked be er children.

25 places go to regular church members (regular attendance is attendance at a service of public worship (or Sunday school) at any time during the week at least twice a month.) Attendance must have started at least a year before application to the school.

Up to 5 places for all other applicants.

There are 30 places. Last year there were nearly 300 applicants.

I'm really shitting it about the whole thing.

What happens if he doesn't get into any of the local schools???

I know I have another 4 years and things can change, but things may not change either.

If your local schools are over-subscribed, why don't you take this opportunity to start a free school with other like-minded parents?

You could band together and provide a good quality rationalist education that was not just "adaquate" and make a real difference to local children's lives. You have several years to do this in before it becomes an issue for you. Do you think there are other parents with the same outlook in your area?

As an aside, why do you think it is that the faith schools are better than the non-faith school? Is there something about the religious aspect of these schools that improves them?

www.gov.uk/set-up-free-school

There are 300 applications for 30 places? I think they'll be able to pick people with more commitment to the church than 2 lip service visits a month, to be honest.

Hi ruby. Interesting thoughts. I haven't really met anyone with the same outlook as me. They all seem to be happy with pretending they are religious. Which is beyond me. Everyone I've spoken to just accepts it and made me think I am the one in the wrong for questioning it!!

I don't think its the religious aspect that makes the school good. It's the reports from previous years, and just the "common knowledge" that church schools are the better schools. I don't know why really. I have no problem with religious education...in fact I think its an essential part of learning. But I don't think children should be told what to think, they should be taught HOW to think. Church schools, specifically catholic schools, in my opinion, are guilty of indoctrinating children. When people say that catholic schools were the first schools, all I can think of is that the only reason the schools were set up was to indoctrinate children at an early age to ensure the church did not die.

I'm waffling now. Sorry if I'm not making sense.

OP are you sure you cannot move? I am in London too but even so 300 applicants for 30 places sounds very tigh to me. In South London we have around 300 for 60-90 places...

moving really is not an option...

Faith schools have better results because they are selective. schools which are selective for any reason at all produce better results. It's not, as they say, rocket science.

Perhaps you could get the local paper involved and see if you can find like-minded parents that way, and/or start a FB group, anything really to see if you can locate some more parents who feel the way you do.

At the moment at least you have time on your side.

"Indeed it would. If you attend during Sunday service and sit admiring the windows, you have fulfilled the admission criteria at any church school that just requires regular attendance.
There is no special truth serum handed out at the end to see who is there to worship God and who is there for a bit of a sit down and a school place"

Obviously. But here enters the hypocrisy that some people seem so upset that I raised!

Liolils knowing that you are in london now, I'd really really try very hard to be hyprocritcal. There are many children who couldn't get into any local schools at all, even a very bad one. I think the LEA has to come up with a place for your child, and some people are travelling very long distances to their primary schools. I've heard also many have to home ed their children until a place comes up.

You said you couldn't bring yourself to go to a catholic church. I'd start going to the CoE one and be active. Sunday school for your child and things like that. You don't want to regret it when 5 years down the road, you couldn't get into any school, and think you could have done something else. If the situation improves in 5 years, you could just choose the community school instead.