my son is being punished for our religious stance

[LiloLils]

...this is a bold statement but its how I feel.

There isn't any point to my post but the subject is keeping me awake so thought it might help to write it down on a public forum and see if I'm not the only one who is saddened by this.

Basically my DH and I are non religious. I was brought up catholic and he was brought up church of England but somewhere along the line we both lost our faith and sided with reason. Myself particularly...I have a bit of a problem with organised religion. there are personal reasons for this.

Long story short. If we stick to our guns and don't get our boy christened into either Catholicism or church of England, he is going to have to attend the worst school in the borough.

It just really angers me. Why in this day and age do we have to jump through hoops, lie about our beliefs, and subject our children to learning fairy tales as fact, in order to get them into a "good" school?

I have never been so torn about a decision in my life. I'm being pressured by family and friends to get him christened just to get him into a good school. They make me feel guilty by saying things like "do it for your child. I'd do anything for my child...wouldn't you?" It just feels all wrong.

I agree with you OP, think its absolutely scandalous that taxpayers money goes to something that only people of a certain religion attend. It really, really stinks, and drives me completely bonkers.

The lesson is sometimes you have to do things you don't like in order to get somewhere? It's not like they are actually actively doing something wrong.

What seeker said:

"personally, I would take my chances with a less good school than raise a child in an atmosphere of hypocrisy."

and

"Don't rely on OfSTED alone"

What I found helpful in choosing schools was a combination of looking at the children- like Spero said: is there a happy, bustling atmosphere, are the children polite and pleasant towards visitors and teachers- and asking teachers about a few specific situtations (what would you do in the case of X). I would not trust a school that said they never encountered bullying- that just means they are burying their head in the sand. I would expect them to tell me what they do when bullying occurs. Also, what to do to support able pupils and generally about their programme for pastoral care.

Yes 3 until recently was satisfactory. Some of the teaching etc may have been good,at ours a lot was.

What did they say re bullying,behaviour and management(the problem at ours)?

Around here the 6 month criterion only applies to Catholic schools, not CofE (but don't know where you are, and things can change).

Im so sorry you are in this situation op, we faced the same problem and did not get into any of the local top schools, or any of the average schools. We kept an open mind and went to look at the failing school we were offered. I cant understand how the school is open, they regularly have police there to deal with parents. there were beer cans at the gates form parents.

I walked to the school at school run time past the local top rated faith school. I was disgusted by the language from the parents and children i heard at the gates and there were mums in pyjamas.

It honestly looked like something from the Jeremy kyle show. The only options I saw were either home education or private education. We are lucky that we could (just about) afford private. I think its absolutely disgusting that children of religious families get better education. I never thought i would opt for private but the alternative just seemed to grim to consider.

It says bullying isn't an issue.

Behaviour... "Is not outstanding because they do not take full responsibility for making good progress..."

So at least this sounds ok ish...

Tbh that doesn't sound too bad and common to a lot of schools.In 4 years. I suspect it will be at least good. Staying at 3 isn't an option anymore as. I understand it.

You could ask how they're doing,they'll be getting monitoring visits.

Also if you think about it the teachers must be working a lot harder with a variety of languages at the school nobody wants than those at the cherry picked school down the road with I suspect not as many challenges.

Have a look on their website,newsletters,try and chat to some mums there if you're there a lot anyway.

So is 3 in an ofsted report ok then?

Another thing that puts me off is that I was walking past at closing time yesterday and there was a mum waiting outside the gates. She was speaking on her mobile. Well I say speaking...she was practically shouting. Swearing really loudly and threatening to "smack" someone "upside their head" and rascklat this and that. Usually I would have found this hilarious but it just worried me. She mar proper scary. I later saw her and her son walking down the road. She swore at him too and gave him a clip round the ear hole!! I know this is only one mum. And don't get me wrong, I'm not a snob at all but it got me thinking. That's why I lay in bed last night overthinking everything.

So is 3 in an ofsted report ok then?

Another thing that puts me off is that I was walking past at closing time yesterday and there was a mum waiting outside the gates. She was speaking on her mobile. Well I say speaking...she was practically shouting. Swearing really loudly and threatening to "smack" someone "upside their head" and rascklat this and that. Usually I would have found this hilarious but it just worried me. She mar proper scary. I later saw her and her son walking down the road. She swore at him too and gave him a clip round the ear hole!! I know this is only one mum. And don't get me wrong, I'm not a snob at all but it got me thinking. That's why I lay in bed last night overthinking everything.

Oh lord, OP- there will be parents like that at any school!

What does the report say about the teaching, management and pastoral care?

There are mums like that everywhere, I live in a tiny village with an excellent school and I see mums like that everyday.

Maybe she was having a stressful day?

3 requires improvement but was Satisfactory.Obviously Good or Outstanding would be preferable however ours was Outstanding and is now 3- same kids and parents.Several teachers have left admittedly.We had a new head,a lot rides on a decent head.

You get the odd parent like you describe but I'm sure they're not the maj,hover a bit more.

Oh and my friend removed her dd from the local Outstanding school because of bullying inside and outside the school by cliquy kids and bitchy parents driving 4x4s so undesirable parents can go both ways iykwim.

Yes 3 is ok. It is not a failing school. It is not in special measures. It has four years to improve!

Yes there are scarey parents. But they aren't actually in the classroom teaching your child. They may be mouthing off near the playground but I doubt very much that this is going to impact on your child. Far more important is the atmosphere in your home and how he models your behaviour.

Your son needs to grow up to live in the world, to know there are all sorts of people in it. Not in some bubble, insulated from all the scarey poor people and a bubble you got him into by lying about something so fundamental as your religious convictions.

Education and values aren't exclusively part of the school environment. He will also learn from you and your choices.

Check the admission criteria for the CofE school carefully. It is unlikely they give priority to christened children but they will give priority to those who attend church regularly.

Both the CofE school and the RC school may reserve a proportion of places for people who don't qualify under faith criteria. Take a look at the admission criteria for both schools to check this.

Check the non-faith school for yourself. It may not be as bad as others say. If it has had poor Ofsted reports for 5 years as you say I am surprised it isn't in special measures. If it does go into special measures there will be significant changes, possibly including conversion to academy status.

As your child is young a lot can change between now and the time you need to apply for a school place. New schools may open. The admission criteria for the existing schools may change. A school that is excellent now may become a failing school and a failing school may become the best school in the area.

If you are unsure what the admission criteria mean I am happy to take a look for you. Just PM me the names of the schools and the LA involved. I am also happy to see what I can find out about the non-faith school.

OP, I really sympathise. I go to church regularly (C of E) but don't believe in faith schools because they are divisive. My DD goes to a non-faith local school. I looked at the local faith school but it wasn't that great. I would not have hesitated to send her to a C of E school if I felt it offered the best education.

Spero, 3 is far from "fine". And the idea that "they have four years to turn it around" - what if they don't? An entire primary education would be sub-standard.

OP, there's a lot of talk about hypocrisy on this thread, and I know that you feel it would be unethical to somehow "fake" a faith that you don't believe in. However... please consider. The CofE church only requires regular attendance. It does not require you to somehow prove you're actually believing. It requires you to act as if you have faith only. Personally, and I've thought a lot about this, I'm okay with this. I don't feel that someone is taking a place away from "Christian" children. Who knows what goes on in someone's heart and mind, truly? Over the years, I've had many periods of doubt - does that make me suddenly a hypocrite for turning up most Sundays? No, it makes me human.

So if you would be willing to show up at church, get on your knees occasionally for the sake of your child's education, then don't discount it. BTW you don't have to park your brain at the door of the church. You may even meet some interesting, intelligent people.

I wish you the best of luck whatever you decide.

We were in a very similar position- we love directly opposite a catholic school which has excellent results and which people are falling over themselves to get into, but we are not religious. I went to look round it, thinking that perhaps I could live with it and get DD baptised.

I can't.

The school was utterly awful. Strict, dour and depressing. Reception class were writing out prayers in silence. It gets great academic results, but I don't care. I want a happy child who likes going to school. And I can't get on board with teaching Christianity as fact; if anyone is going to lie to my children, it's me

So, I would advise going to visit the religious schools if you haven't already (sorry if I've missed that).

Then, the borough introduced catchment areas- this put me out of catchment for our nearest school, but in catchment for a couple of lovely schools which we had previously written off. We're waiting nervously to hear next week if DD1 has got in to any of them...

As others have said, a lot can change in three or four years, particularly in the current political climate.

I won't rant on this subject but I think if you want a religious education for your child then it should be via the private system and the various religious bodies should set up their own private faith orientated schools.

I'm not against teaching RE as part of the curriculum but my taxes should not be used to fund a school whose admission is based (in the main) on whether or not you believe in this or that God and whether you go to worship a prescribed number of times a month. This country should take the French approach and seperate schooling based on faith belief from the state education system.

Whistleahapppytune- what do you say to your children about this monumental hypocrisy? Do you pretend to them as we'll? Or do you tell them the truth and expect them to perpetuate the lie?

Seeker, what? What monumental hypocrisy are you talking about?

Seeker if you care to discuss this, you might take a slightly less aggressive tone. I am neither living or perpetuating a lie.

As I've clearly stated, I go to church regularly. My DD accompanies me about half the time, but I don't force her to go. She does not attend a faith school.

I have had periods of doubts over the years, and have struggled with my faith. As have many priests. Doubt is part of faith, and anyone who says otherwise is probably a fundamentalist.

Lots of posters on this thread have talked about places being held back for non-faith pupils, but unfortunately there are schools where the non-faith pupils are so far down the list of admissions criteria that they have a greater chance of attending school on the moon.

A faith school that I know well has the following criteria:

Children in care.

Siblings in order of distance.

Regular attendees and minister's reference from one of three named churches, in order of distance. (regular attendance is found to mean 2 years of attendance, at least once per month)

Children of other christian faiths in order of distance.

Other children in order of distance.

When you hear that 15/30 places are taken up by siblings then it is very clear, in an area of oversubscribed schools, that the 'other' category is not going to get a look in.

What I would suggest:

1. get hold of the admissions policies for each or any of the local schools and look at them carefully.

2. Go on tours ASAP, even though this is not your year of application. In London it is definitely not unusual to see parents touring schools with a baby or younger toddler. Get on to this now, while schools are still runnning tours and the summer term is not totally taken up with sports day/end of year stuff.

3. Look to see if there is any other community school nearby. Remember that once applications are made you could go on the waiting list for any school you like. Obvously the odds are not great, but I have heard it happen for people to be offered places at schools even if they are not very nearby, especially if you are in a part of London where people may decide to take up a private school place.

4. Consider the strategy of home educating until your child is a couple of years into school, then waiting for a place to come up.

5. Move house as a family, mum included?