Would you be prepared to pay more tax to get better state education for all?

[happygardening]

Any other suggestions welcome to ensure that all where ever they live and whatever their background have access to education of the highest quality.

More tax won't work - because the highest earners are internationally mobile, and can work wherever they want to, really.

What the government should be looking at is where money is being wasted. Like when they completely wasted £11bn on that stupid NHS IT systems project. Now, how great could schools be now, if that £11bn was spent on them instead. Previous governments have completely ruined this place. GPs now earn way too much for what they actually do (see here). About 90% of the time I go to the GP, they say things that I can get out via Google (i.e. type in symptoms you have).

And these are just the examples...

The wealthy are more mobile and Bulgaria has 10% tax - seems obvious then that those who think we are too highly taxed here should go and live there. Problem solved, or not, because I don't expect to see a sudden departure.

LaVolcan - wouldn't you want the government to cut down wastage rather than be taxed more?!?

Actually, not talking about Bulgaria - there are other very developed countries around that tax less. Why the eagerness to tax people more?!? Do you just want to pay tax for the sake of it??? Be my guest - do so tomorrow yourself...

There have been some departures - parts of Switzerland like Zug have low tax rates. I've been there on business and companies are moving out from the UK. Some have been tempted back here by low corporate tax but in the main if tax gets too high mobile people move.

The problem with the proposed EU new bonus rules is that banking salaries will have to be higher to keep people and if the system becomes too bad then companies will not base their activities in the EU but concentrate on Hong Kong, NY etc. Their staff will want to work elsewhere.

I would stay whilst the children are at school. Once they leave if tax gets too high I will move where it isn't and obviously that is not likely to be in Bulgaria because of the mafia etc although Romania - Transylvanian countryside appeals perhaps, probably not my island (Pacific) but there are certainly good choices around. When the highest UK personal tax reached 99% people did leave. In my view 40% personal tax upper rate including NI is about the highest level before people start looking for ways to reduce it such as using their wife's personal tax allowance or else consider working elsewhere.

The best quote of the week was from Boris J, on this.

?Brussels cannot control the global market for banking talent. Brussels cannot set pay for bankers around the world. This is possibly the most deluded measure to come from Europe since Diocletian tried to fix the price of groceries across the Roman empire."

Diocletian capped grocery prices in Roman times and it did not work well.

The government should look at where money is being wasted, it just doesn't often get its analysis right and then spends huge amounts of money on introducing the private sector into things in the wrongful anticipation this will save money and increase efficiency, rather than cost the taxpayer money in silly changes that don't help and can't easily be reversed. Attitudes need to change, not sectors. And the worst attitude of all, imo, is the one which won't get off its backside unless it can make a huge profit out of it.

And I'm not happy that this year, school budgets are effectively being reduced to make up for the gross overspend of about £1 billion on the Academies and Free Schools programme.

LaVolcan - wouldn't you want the government to cut down wastage rather than be taxed more?!?

Since you ask a direct question, I will give a direct answer. I would want them to stop wasting money rushing into whichever war the US tells them to. Or nearer home rabbitstew's example of money wasted on the academies and free school programmes is a good example.

I laughed out load at Boris Johnson's 'banking talent' . The people who are responsible for the worst recession since the war? Give me strength, well I suppose it's something of a talent to be so bad.

Incidentally no-one ever paid 99% tax on their earnings - despite George Harrison's song (which was a protest about taxes on unearned income rather than income tax). They worked up through the rate bands - x amount of personal allowances, then the first rate band, second etc. It was only ever the top slice of earnings which got taxed at the highest rate. And then there was MIRAS and LIRAS - mortage and life interest relief at source which could be set against your earnings.

Companies might move their headquarters to Switzerland to avoid Corporation tax; the average English person won't because their skills at foreign languages are not the best.

So no, I can't shed too many tears for the very wealthy. I am angry at what is happening to the sick and disabled.

And the worst attitude of all, imo, is the one which won't get off its backside unless it can make a huge profit out of it.

It never ceases to amaze me how the very rich need huge bonuses as an incentive, but the poor need a kick up the backside. Funny that.

Xenia talks about countries with low tax rates holding them us as models we should follow but many regard the Scandinavian countries as a good example of certainly education. Here significantly more tax is paid by the individual to support the welfare state. My DH has recently worked extensively in Norway I understand there is basically no such a thing as independent ed. all children from all back grounds are educated by the state ditto health care. But this high level of taxation means that even the wealthy don't lead as extravagant lives as we do. Last year I met some Norwegians all professionals and the sort of people earning the magical £100 000+ equivalent. Over dinner they were telling me how shocked they are at the way we live; my husband meets them at the airport downing a large Costa coffee on the motorway he stops and buys more and a sandwich/cake apparently in Norway unless you exceptionally rich even the wealthy would not live like this day in day out because as well as paying more tax food the cinema dinning out are considerably more expensive.
They too have problems with the underclass and many Norwegians have major concerns about immigration but as one of the wealthiest countries in the world high taxation doesn't seem to have caused an economic apocalypse.

On the 99% tax if you earn a lot then most of your earnings are in the upper band. If you earn £100m a year in the Uk then virtually none of your earnings are taxed currently at lower than 52% upper rate tax/NI.

Anyway I know all parties realise that very high tax does little good. Labour kept the upper rate at 40%. Everyone realises very high taxes do little good. It just means you end up like states where people hide their income. I think Greece found that 90% of senior lawyers and accountants declare on average £5000 a year income! We don't have that culture here. Most people do pay tax but the higher the rates and more complex the system the more likely people will be incentivised to move abroad or use all allowances such as wife's personal allowance or putting money in the wife's name she never earned to avoid tax or other avoidance devices,. If instead tax is fair people are happy to pay it as it stands. I really do think that 52% (or 66% marginal rate as explained above) is a disincentive. I am working on Sunday because I have all those benefits claimants to support and it is my moral duty... and I suppose because the less than half I keep is useful to have but there comes a point when so much goes in tax you think let those benefits claimants starve, I will work less as most of the extra hard work goes to the state not to oneself.

The Norwegians we met weren't hiding their incomes far fr

"Everyone realises that very high taxes do little good." No they don't - we wouldn't even be having this discussion if that were the case.

"I am working on Sunday because I have all those benefits claimants to support and it is my moral duty..." very noble of you, I am sure. I doubt whether it would make the slightest difference to Benefit claimants if you were to take the day off. I'm sorry Xenia but my heart bleeds for you.

"but there comes a point when so much goes in tax you think let those benefits claimants starve"

It's a bit like David Icke's lizard people isn't it? The appearance of a a perfectly normal, civilised human being most of the time, but it's so hard to keep it going that just occasionally a bit of green scaly skin shows for a second.......

The Norwegians we met weren't hiding their incomes far from it but they admitted that their lifestyles were less extravagant than ours because of their high tax rates but all we're proud of their welfare state and all the things it provided and were frankly stunned by our school fee bill and although many people earned on paper more tha we did said that it would be outside of their reach.

Although happygardening some Norwegians are happy to 'work the system', shall we say. Morten Harket, of the late lamented A-ha is a very wealthy man, but apparently pays less tax than their Prime Minister.

How do we know this? The information is made publicly available!

In every country in the world there will be those who avoid tax but I don't think Xenias statement that high tax rates is automatically associated with hiding incomes is another one of her gross generalisations and not a reason for reducing tax across the board especially if it has a detrimental effect on those who are scratching around to make ends meet and most importantly the innocencent victims in all of this their children.

happgardening

I have friends in Norway (God, I realize they seem to all be spread around everywhere, and I must look like an idiot prone to anecdotes), and while they DO get taxed more, my former comment holds - they normally are compensated for it by higher salaries and a lot of other perks. My DH also goes there on business a lot. His colleagues over there enjoy a very, very generous package in UK terms - and this is protected by the Norwegian government (i.e. company has to provide them with that). About their lifestyle being less glamorous - that depends. They don't happen to be the most frugal. They have similar jobs to me & DH, but live (actually have a house) in probably one of the poshest part of Oslo. These very same friends see Harvey Nics in London as "cheap" because goods are expensive over there.

They have fantastic perks - they match your maternity leave pay to 100% of your salary for about 11 months, and then, it goes down to about 80% for another few weeks. When we heard that, we looked like this: . FWIW, even Bulgaria offers better maternity leave pay than the UK. The Norwegian government also has a system in place where they will help fund a Norwegian's higher education abroad.

However, it's well-known (and I have it confirmed from a higher source) that a lot of what the Norwegian government spends to fund this relatively nice life does not come from tax. It's oil money - which Norway happens to (currently) have a lot of. My friends did voice their concern that the lives of their DCs will not be as plush as theirs.

DH did ask me whether we should move there as that option is available for him. The reason I am reluctant to do that is that while Norway has its perks, and looks fair on paper, it's not really like that in real life. The high income class consists of distinctively tall and blond Norwegians. Basically, let's put it this way (and this may seem very direct): if the name on your CV vaguely resembles "Mohammed", your CV is very likely to end up in the trash can.

I do agree with Xenia regarding Switzerland - that's where a lot of companies have moved to now!

And the UK didn't have oil money too?

The Norwegians nationalised their oil industry (Statoil). They've had loads of oil and only a population of 4.5 million. Hence their Sovereign Wealth fund of over a trillion dollars.

LaVolcan - nowhere near as much as as Norway.

^ what grovel says...

Unsustainable in future though...

Maybe Switzerland will cease to be quite so attractive:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21647937

This referendum was sold to the Bristol residents as an option to raise council tax to improve the city's schools.

The answer was a resounding no, with a large turn out, suggesting that a majority of people would say no, they wouldn't like to pay more tax for better state education.

Norway's main income tax is a flat tax and most people pay a lot of tax so very very different from here. In the US 50% of people pay not tax at all. In Norway most people are paying loads of tax so they feel more involved I suppose in state decisions.

The problem we have in the UK with 20% VAT, massive stamp duty rates, petrol duties and one of the higher income taxes in the EU is that we do not have the Scandinavian benefits in return or deductions for the £25k childcare costs many of us pay or have paid.