Would you be prepared to pay more tax to get better state education for all?

[happygardening]

Any other suggestions welcome to ensure that all where ever they live and whatever their background have access to education of the highest quality.

Xenia Would you like to abolish the institution of marriage?

Er- a significant % of that 53% are presumably pensioners? Who have usually had a lifetime of being net contributors. And students- who have presumably a lifetime ahead of ditto.

"Xenia Would you like to abolish the institution of marriage?"

No- that's me!

"when purely examining non-retired households. 39.6 per cent of these households received more in benefits than they paid in taxes in 2010/11"
I'm sure even the most ardent Daily Mail supporter wouldn't begrudge the retired their pensions so Xenia its 39.6%. of that 3.2 million receive DLA 2.6 million receive ESA (incapacity benefit) despite the stories in the Daily Mail et al most are legitimate claimants and the numbers are likely to increase year on year because medical advances. The numbers claiming housing benefit has also increased due to the significant reduction in social housing and therefore the need to rent privately and pay more rents which are rising faster than inflation and of course many peoples wages (including NHS workers the UK's biggest employers) have had their pay frozen
Would anyone on here remove benefit from those at the bottom of the pile I sincerely hope not.

According to statistics 1 in 3 children live in poverty in a country like our this is a disgrace.

xenia - some of the highest personal tax rates in the EU?
Yourself excepted, because you have already reminded us that you are a high earner, and given that the average salary is, I believe, £26 000, I hardly think 20% counts as 'high'. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe
We are somewhere near the bottom of the list for EU countries.

Don't forget that pensions are taxable.

If your only income is the state pension then you will be below the personal allowance rate and won't pay tax, but don't forget that you have paid contributions to obtain this pension in the first place.

Factor in an occupational pension, which by definition, you will have worked for, you will probably be in the tax bracket.

So that gets us down to what, about 25%ish net "takers" who are not pensioners, disabled or caring for disabled people.

Interesting. Not even the most ardent Daily Mail reader could possibly have thought it was really 75%!

Well the stats I posted above (53%) only include "direct" benefits (NHS, Education). They don't include a contribution towards Defence for example.

And Daily Mail/Express and some Telegraph/Sun readers aside I think most of us accept that most people dont want to be dependent on the state. They want a job and a reasonable income a decent roof over their heads and back where we started decent schools for their children so that they stand a chance of getting a job and a decent roof over their heads etc etc.

You could say that a reasonable proportion of the net givers are also the employers who fail to pay their employees a living wage, hence the need for government handouts...

It's not 20%. You also pay 13% NI so it's 23% even before you start on our 20% VAT and very very high stamp duty, fuel, drink and other taxes. It is one reason we are doing so badly and benefits are frozen. People are not wanting to bring businesses here as tax is high.

Anyway I was not really seriously suggesting the net takers or the non tax payers be disenfranchised and I would support reducing voting age to 16 and would like all prisoners to have the vote. Universal suffrage has been a very very big issue in British history.

However there is a current issue that a lot of people who pay no tax are more than happy that they encourage higher taxes on those who do work. Once 60% of what you earn is taken away (it is 52% currently tax and NI but in case is more like 60% as you lose the single person allowance - we also have just about the most complex tax system on the planet which does not help) you just work less although as ever I am working today Saturday and work 50 weeks a year but that's to keep all the benefits claimants - a charitable activity to ensure they can be kept and I am sure they appreciate I have worked for 30 years with no breaks, no maternity leaves and no holiday longer than 2 weeks and work 50 weeks a year. The fact that gives me no more say in who my money is spent than someone who has never worked a day in their life is a bit galling. However I can always escape to the island or live elsewhere abroad if tax becomes even higher particularly confiscatory taxes on wealth you don't have. That would be the last straw - that a man who spent his wealth on women and cocaine is untaxed whereas a woman who choose to house children instead and keep families together in one house who moved hundreds of miles away from family to find work then finds their own asset -the family home which may well be mortgaged at over £1m and they have no real wealth is then subject to a £30k a year tax. We live in interest times. Given how many of us only need an internet connection to work if taxes get much higher the poor will find no o ne making much money is left.

When I lived in NL I paid 52% tax at the margin, services were excellent and I think we could learn a lot from their educational system.

23% still isn't particularly high. Many other countries are paying 20% VAT so that's no different either.

Stamp duty - sliding scale www.gov.uk/stamp-duty-land-tax-rates but even the highest rate at 7% does not IMO count as 'very high'. Average house price January 2012 in the south east (from the land registry figures) £205,756 would attract a 1% rate so you would be paying just over £2000 on average. Not exactly 'high' although certainly when my son was a first time buyer a couple of years ago he was jolly glad of the 'stamp duty holiday'.

However there is a current issue that a lot of people who pay no tax are more than happy that they encourage higher taxes on those who do work

I pay tax, and have done so for most of my working life, as do my husband, and children, and we would be happy to pay more for education and health, despite not currently consuming much in the way of the services provided (i.e. I have just managed to find an NHS dentist after 15 years of having to go private.) I wouldn't mind betting that there are a lot of taxpayers like me.

I am afraid I get the impression Xenia, that you are the one who doesn't want to pay tax, hence the statements about ' a lot of people who pay no tax' but without any substance to back them up.

Xenia - it's also a bit galling to work very hard for others' benefit but no personal financial gain and find that those who pay tax think that they should have more say in anything than you do and that these people also feel fit to judge what counts as work (and funnily enough only seem to count it as work if you can make a lot of money for yourself out of it, at the expense of others who are often less fortunate and often not getting a good deal). You regularly say you actually enjoy your work hugely and CHOOSE to work that hard, it is also colossally personally beneficial to you in financial and psychological terms, so I'm not sure why you really need to feel so galled by the situation.

(UK has) just about the most complex tax system on the planet

As an American I should like to refute that in the strongest possible terms!! Our tax code is so ridiculously long that nobody pretends to understand even most of it. Not even the IRS themselves.

I bet if you look at the tax regime for some tinpot democracies their tax codes are crazy, too, which is why no one respects them.

I heard that only 3% of the population in India pay income tax. We all know what a great welfare state they have, too. Money enough for nuclear bombs and satellites but not to guarantee safe drinking water.

An individual's value to society cannot be measured by his or her personal income and it therefore does not stand that those that earn more and pay more tax should have a greater share of voice in what happens.

20% basic rate tax plus 13% NI (my typo) makes 33% for those who don'e earn the dizzy heights of the 42% upper tax/NI rate (which I think is paid if you earn £32k plus your personal allowance.)

33% is a lot when you also pay a lot of tax on petrol and stamp duty and road tax etc etc.

I certainly support a much smaller state and a flat tax.
The UK for some years has had the longest tax code on the planet. I found this 2009 quote www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/6146911/UK-has-longest-tax-code-handbook-in-the-world.html but it was also announced this year that it was the same this or last year too.

I think everyone should contribute more to society, and I mean every adult, no matter what their financial circumstances. Both DH and I work full time and we do lots of voluntary work and we have 4 children and no family help, so if we can do it, so can everyone else.

Yet we know very few people who are like us, even those who have lots of time on their hands just seem to feel that anything that doesn't have an immediate financial benefit to them is not worth pursuing..

I much prefer to contribute to society by helping out in many ways than being taxed more, when I do honestly believe that paying half of our household income is contribution enough in a financial sense. I quite liked Cameron's Big Society idea, shame that it became just a soundbite and political spin as it wasn't pursued further to give people incentives to do more for others. We are a far too selfish society.

33% is not correct.

There is 20% Income Tax, 12% Employee's NI, but also 13.8% Employer's NI. Employee's NI goes down to 2% above £40,040 per year, but employer's NI is not capped.

So if you have someone on £20k/year, and you give them a £1k pay rise, they will receive £680, but you as the employer will pay 13.8% NI on that, so the cost of the payrise is actually £1,138

Therefore the actual tax rate is not 32% , but 40.25%

For higher rate tax payers, you receive £580 out of £1138, so the actual tax rate is 49%.

If you earn over £50,000 and have children, you get your Child Benefit removed, at a rate dependent on the number of children you have, but for two children currently 17.52%, so an overall 66.2% tax rate.

On incomes just above £100k, you lose your Personal Allowance at a rate of £1 in £2 earned. So the effective tax rate is 66.6%.

For those on the 45% band (above £150k), the effective tax rate is 53.4%.

Obviously tax rates on earned income are far too high, which is why only the little people bother with them, and the likes of Jimmy Carr and numerous others set out to avoid paying tax entirely.

rabbitstew Don't worry about the "So what" comment. Was just a little grumpy. Much better now. I swear . There's a nursery 3 minutes walk (i'm a very slow walker) from my desk and open 7am to 6pm. Naturally, that means DC will be stuck in there with other colleagues' DCs, and for me, it "feels" a little claustrophobic because of that.

Your saving option is commendable, but you are also lucky because your DH actually earns enough to provide for his family AND to save on top of it. Many have to have two parents working just to get by...

WTM - some European countries do charge more income tax, but their taxes on other things is not as horrendous. Inheritance tax in the UK, for example, is huge given the house prices in the South. That's a double-tax because beneficiaries have to pay tax on something their parents, etc. bought with taxed income.

On the continent, cost of living is generally less, especially if you include the cost of housing. My school friends in Germany pay huge taxes, have nice homes and still have loads left for shopping, holidays and savings. They think that spending more than 20% of your income on housing is insane. Companies often also compensate for the higher tax. If I could have what they have, and pay more tax... I would.

Upper tax band starts at £35k, not £32k.

I can't follow all the posts here on exact percentage deductions, but Some example tax+NI bills, for given gross incomes:

£20k £3867 19%
£30k £7068 24%
£40k £10,268 26%
£60k £18,421 31%
£80k £26,821 34%
£110k £41,421 38%
£180k £75,063 41%

I dunno, looks like a progressive tax system should to me. I can't quite follow how the tax rate really rises to 66% for very high earners; maybe on the marginal difference income? I don't see how child benefit or tax credits should be included as losses, or if they are included then why not include JSA and Housing Benefit, too. I got same numbers out of another online tax calculator so I hope they are correct. And Lord knows the Rich are well capable of finding ways to put their income into tax shelters, so unlikely to pay the max suggested above.

It is entirely standard to include tax credits in marginal tax rates.

Child benefit was a universal payment, and it's identical to a tax.

The 66% figure is a marginal rate including employers and employees NI, income tax, and the lost personal allowance.

2013/14 the point you start to pay 42% tax.NI is coming down to £32k from £4k, sorry to break to people but you add your single person allowance to your £32k to work out at what point you start to pay the 42%.Tax is very high in the UK and we need to think of ways of the state providing much less and spending much less so that rates can eventually come down. I hope non tax payers and housewives can also take the same view even if they do not pay a penny in tax.

Also some states with similar taxes to the UK have childcare which is £1500 a year rather than the £15k a year per nursery place someone might pay for full time places in the UK. We get none of the benefits and yet have some of the highest tax rates in Europe. Bulgaria has a 10% flat tax.

As soon as states reduce tax rates tax revenues go up as people worker harder as they keep more of the money and because they do not then need to seek lawfully to reduce tax through legitimate means such as having wife and husband both working so they claim two personal allowances rather than only one working. When Lawson reduced upper rate to 40% and had 2 simple rates lower and higher the tax receipts went up. In my life time upper rate of tax in the UK was 99%. People not surprisingly started to leave the UK when tax was at that level.