Would you be prepared to pay more tax to get better state education for all?

[happygardening]

Any other suggestions welcome to ensure that all where ever they live and whatever their background have access to education of the highest quality.

Yay! I'm allowed to contribute!!!!!!

"or patient care has to become less important to you which appears to be the way it's gone since women entered the work force"
rabbit you have a remarkable ability to offend. I'm assuming and hoping that your child has never have been critically and therefore have no comprehension of the effort and energy that is expended to save the life of a child and how devestated (although of course not in the same league as the parents) we are when we fail these deaths haunt most of us forever. The last child I spent half the night trying to save its life was saved because it was so important to me and my collegues both men and women some married some single We cared about that child and its parents and in particular those of us who have children as I'm sure you as a parent know there is nothing worse than loosing a child. I've spent 29 years working with children all matter to me.

I have spent a day helping to clear an old person's house so he can move into sheltered accommodation. Frankly, it is an awful job as the house has not been cleaned for some years. It is so bad we will need face masks to finish because the dust is so extreme.

If I and my friend didn't do this, who would step in? And who would pay for it? He has no family at all. Would social services have to get involved at tax payer's expense?

I do work, btw. I am self-employed and managed to juggle things.

Yes, I have had a critically ill child who was badly let down by the system in a filthy hospital with a very rude nurse. I was also very badly let down by the experience and took a long time to get over the anger and anxiety it caused and the problems it caused for my ds. I have also had a critically ill child who was very well cared for, although we were in Australia at the time. And as my parents are in the medical profession and have been shocked by the manners of nurses in a local hospital, the dirt and the apparent lack of care or even noticing when patients had bed sores, I'm sorry if I offend, but I have been offended in my turn by a profession I used to respect hugely. There is nothing more hurtful than feeling let down by the one profession in life I respected more than any other and used to feel totally safe in the care of.

According to the BBC today 40% of doctors and nurses would not want their families treated in their hospitals. Pretty damning.

My parents, who worked for the NHS all their lives, views a couple of the hospitals near them as places to go if you want to die.

i'm sorry Rabbit that you feel let down but in my experience I have never seen children whose lives are hanging by a thread experience anything but incredible dedicated care. No one wants to hear or read of this not occurring and of course we know it does but the vast majority in these situations don't experience bad care. I just want add, before there are endless posts about how their badly their mother and other friends relatives were treated I'm only talking about children I have no recent experience of the adults .

But 60% would and all know the private sector is not a good alternative especially when you breathing your last.

You are lucky, happygardening, that you have only ever seen incredible care of other peoples' children and haven't had your own child's life put at risk in hospital. I personally will never, ever forget it, and would feel physically sick if I had to go back into that hospital, which I may well have to one day, as you don't have much choice when it comes to Accident & Emergency. At least for other eventualities, I can and do always specifically request not to be seen by anyone at that hospital. It took years to get over the nagging fear that my ds1's difficulties were caused by the mistakes in his treatment in hospital, as he was a very different child that came out to the one that went in. I felt awfully guilty I hadn't done more to protect him, although I had thought that by getting him to hospital I was protecting him.

Sorry I know you have moved on but I just wanted to pick up on the idea of the family as a unit in terms of tax.

In regard to Xenia's comments - If the family unit must always come second to the priority of both parents having financial independence then women actually have less choice not more. The only way I could have remained a tax payer in my own right would have been either to pay for long-term care for DCs with SN and illness and make myself miserable with guilt and then again pay for care for a parent who developed early Alzheimers (I was 36 at the time.) Financially and in practical terms there was not much choice but Xenia's idea that all women must be financially independent would have removed any choice. We cannot assume that all families are the same - being a SAHP is sometimes the only workable option for some circumstances.

Agreeing with rabbitstew's earlier comments - my DH works long hours but he would laugh if you asked him if he sees the money he earns as solely his. He considers that it was his choice as much as mine to have children and by looking after them I am facilitating his career. Circumstances have stopped me contributing financially as the role I take couldn't realistically be filled by anyone else - and he's bloody grateful to me as he knows I'm paying a high price. At the same time I don't begrudge him his career I'm just bloody grateful he had a talent that could support us all. It might not be ideal in terms of feminism (and I do consider myself a feminist) but it was a pragmatic choice which I stand by and I know a lot of families who have had to make similar choices.

I think the idea of having no say on whether your partner should pay more tax if you are not a tax-payer yourself is ridiculous. I think it's strange to not consider your own family a unit. Any changes in tax affect the whole family - if my DH needs to work longer hours I'm the one left holding the fort and my workload increases too. If there is less money coming in I'm the one who sorts out the budget and makes cutbacks. I know how DH feels about tax because we talk about it. We are in this together - I can't believe we're that unusual.

In fact, it took about 5 years to get over the terror whenever my children were ill - which would be worse? To take them to see a doctor, or not to? I was lucky my father was a doctor and at least I still trusted him.

I agree entirely with Emphaticmaybe.

It all a reflection of modern society. I also know medical staff who would say families don't give a damn until death is at the door of elderly relatives. But that won't go down well with people. But slamming, doctors, nurses and auxiliary care staff is seen as ok.

Emphatic, I think you reflect the majority view.

Phew it's not just me

I had a bad experience with ds1 when I was 2 Weeks overdue. Was left for extra 2 days in pain and been induced slowly and yes was treated badly by the nurses who basically told me to be quiet and wait it out.
But I think that they do a very difficult job in a country with zero personal responsibilty

I also agree with you, socareless, that society in general is accepting too little personal responsibility for the care of the elderly, etc, but also think that is linked to women joining the paid workforce with men without either sex considering that this leaves a massive hole where unpaid work used to be done. And now insult is added to injury by people suggesting that non-tax payers should have no say in how society is governed, as though all non-tax payers are lazy spongers.

It doesn't matter if you pay tax or not because it's likely that you would be effected by any increase in taxation in some way. Any way I'm interested in how we can improve education for all and hopefully I'm not alone in this so it makes sense to me that all have a say in it. I might be prepared (just) to accept that throwing more money at education won't make any difference (although could address real or perceived problems with class sizes). But it seems to me a solution needs to be discussed with all and implemented before we loose out to other countries.

I am lucky enough to have chosen a decent enough professional career to send my DS to a very nice private school. I pay a huge amount of tax also. However I am not stupid enough to think the more money you earn or tax you pay should equal a greater say in where taxes of the country go as a whole not to think my work (just because it makes me money) makes the world go round. I am extremely grateful there are others out there who make a large sacrifice (lifestyle wise) to do a vocational job like nursing on low pay or volunteer for the Air Ambulance ....and they should have no less say in what taxes are spent on than I do.

I have to add...to me a me a 20 something broker working all hours to earn his fat bonus from gambling somone else's money on some hedged bet is more of a "sponger" on society than some non earning volunteer providing meals on wheels to the elderly

Couldn't agree with you more about the bankers. I fail to see what wrong with voluntary work and why volunteering excludes you from having a say about taxation.

Sorry brokers bloody spell check!

It was certanily a historical issue. I forget the dates but UK vote used to go to houseowners over 30 who were male i.e. middle or upper class men who were more sensible than younger ones. Eventually women won the vote etc. It is nto a new point that only those who pay in should decide things.

The bigger issue which isn ot for this thread is why is it always muggins mum, the women who do the dross low paid care stuff which is generalyl pretty dull and for which they get little appreciation and later regret whereas the men wives of the non workers on the thread magically just happen (presumably because they have a penis) not to draw that short straw so they get everything laid on at home for them by their housewife. There is absolutely no reason it should be someone female who does dementia care or looks after the SN child. Let ie be 100% the men for 5000 years until women have had their 5000 years in that better position and after than revert to a 50/50 arrangement.

Anyway no one has plans to remove the vote from those who pay nothing in to the system although there may be an argument that the 25% of us in the UK (and I don't mean non working wives) should have more say and the net takers (75% of people tax credits etc etc) get less or no say.

The only electoral reform issues currently debated are I think going down to age 17 in Scotland and secondly after the court action whether prisoners should have the vote.

Sorry, Xenia, given all you say, I don't see why you think there is any valid argument for the 25% who do none of the physical caring and dross work to have more say than those who do. That way lies an uncaring society blind to its own needs. Or a society which believes that once people get to the point they need more than a very basic amount of care, they should be culled rather than kept alive.

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