Why on earth would you go state if you could afford private?

[Schmedz]

This thread is for Maisie and happygardening . I like dares!

But.....I remember kids being bullied at my selective girls' private school too. In a decent school, a healthy community, no one should be bullied for wanting to learn, or for accents, or for the way the look, or for anything else. Or rather - more realistically - when they are bullied, there should be effective measures that nip it in the bud.

I may be an idealist, but I still believe in working to make unhealthy communities/individuals/schools healthier - and segregation, unless very temporary and with a clear goal in mind, isn't particularly healthy.

And there are - good - state schools where academically inclined children are not bullied at all. Its nothing to do with state/private, surely

Tas, I'm sorry you were bullied as a child at school.

Perhaps the issue is less about the academic quality of your peers, and more to do with the poor support and discipline within the school.

But surely you can't believe that any parent would want their child to attend such a school. As you say yourself, this is a case where academic selection failed you, so why continue to support it?

BS, I know that.

All I said is that its a shame, IMO, that some of the energy being expended in mud-slinging here isn't spent on attempting to remedy that situation.

Russian- sorry. I should have plugged in the irony font. I just knew BS would turn up at that point and I thought I'd give her something to get her teeth into.

I too am sorry you were bullied at school, Tasmania. But if you show me a head teacher of a school in any sector who says there is no bullying in his school, I'll show you a liar. I'm sure I've said before that the worst case in my immediate circle was in a prestigious London prep school. The second worst was in an ordinary comprehensive. However I know of bullying in Scout troops, HE groups-everywhere.

Interesting debate and since my children have long since left school it's academic for me. It would have been a big stretch to educate both privately but I have asked myself whether a private school education would have been worth the £30K per annum required and for me, it wouldn't. One of the local independents was good for sport, and one was very good for music. Since neither of my children had particular interests in either of these areas I don't think they missed out. In addition all the independent schools were single sex, which I didn't want either.

There are things about both their comprehensives that I would have liked to improve, but which school doesn't have things which could be better?

NewFerry

It wasn't academic selection that failed me. It was the "not enough of it". I was at school at a a time when they were really trying to push those into the school who really may not have had the ability to go to uni - political correctness and all that was hailed high by those people who grew up in the 60s (i.e. the teachers). Most of the people in my year (I am talking about 50% of the year) dropped out before we got to the final three years of school, and then it was a whole damn lot better.

If you trace a lot of those bullying drop-outs now, you just know they should not have been at that school in the first place. Some of them really screwed up their lives, but they were given an opportunity, and threw it away... so there's a limit as to how sorry I could feel for them. Yes - that definitely convinced me that good academic selection + interviews is the way to go.

The Head has since changed at that school, they tightened up their selection criteria, switched a lot of the teachers, ... changed the whole way they teach even (!), and it went from a school that became undersubscribed when I left to an oversubscribed one with high-achieving pupils that even scare me (Year 7 kids winning prizes in Philosophy, when it's not even taught). The Head is largely responsible for turning it around, but it couldn't have been easy.

However, if they weren't selective, that turnaround would probably have never come.

"The Head has since changed at that school, they tightened up their selection criteria"

Really? The head did this? At state school?

Seeker

Yes - it's not in the UK. Over there, schools enjoy a lot more autonomy. From what I remember, they even write their own final exams (people don't sit the same, but the questions and the answers are reviewed by an independent 'ombudsman').

^^ I meant: people from different schools don't sit the same exam although they study the same subjects, but the questions and the answers are reviewed by an independent 'ombudsman' (they reviewed the questions prior to the exam being sat).

its a crackers system fundamentally flawed.

that's why we have such idiots running the country and the rest of the world being equally as fucked off as teh working classes

germyrabbit

What do you mean with "the rest of the world being equally as ..."

The "working classes" have it pretty good in the UK. It's the squeezed middle that doesn't...

I know what I want from education and I have been unable to find it in the state sector. I'd be the first to admit that a lot of what I want can only be provided in a boarding school environment because of time constraints but not everything.
But what I'm not interested in is "segregation from other sectors of society" I'm perfectly aware of the fact that by sending my DS to an independent school he is segregated from other sections of society but nothing is perfect and this is not that I'm paying for. I also don't think there's necessarily less bullying in independent ed or even better or for that matter worse teachers although although I suspect they may be free from some pointless bureaucracy which can only be a good thing. Neither do I think every child in independent ed is a perfectly behaved swot hanging on their teachers every word. Finally of course I wish all children had access to the same opportunities my DS has but the sad reality is that they don't.
Since my DC's were toddlers I had an idea (although at times hazy) of what I believe education should offer (probably different from many on here but still no less right or wrong) we have tried all types of schools in an effort to find it ranging from pushy London preps, Steiner schools, quaint village schools with less than 50 pupils and children playing in orchards, crammers for the grammars, boarding preps and highly regarded state schools I have also looked at a huge variety of others in both sectors and have friends with children in a another tranch of schools. I have listen very objectively to their experiences and views of these schools. Many be they state or independent are frankly I think disappointing to say the least. Many in both sectors I wouldn't send the dog too. Someone once told me I expect too much maybe I do.
I have found a school that provides my DS with what I believe he wants and needs (I accept its not perfect but no where is) I have the money to pay for it and therefore it would be IMO insanity not to do it.

yes lol the squeezed middle lol

all education should be equal, all children should be equally educated

it makes sense for all

I am not convinced the "working classes" do have that great a deal in the uk- if anything, they have been failed over and over. And I say that as someone with a child in private school.

germyrabbit

Do you then also want to forbid all parents to teach their children at home and read them books??? Because, you know, that may help the kid do better?

Or better still... take all the newborns away from their mom, and re-allocate them randomly, so that no one really brings up their own, and the biological parents' background no longer matters?

But then again, there is the problem of natural / genetic ability...

Darn it, it's so difficult to make everyone equal, isn't it!?!

scarlett

Compare the "working classes" here in the UK with others all over the world. Not sure you're right there. We live in a welfare state... they have it good!

do be daft

all children should be equally educated

Tasmania- I work with the long term unemployed, believe me they don't have a good deal for a western country. 25% of young people in the uk have only a very basic grasp of literacy and numeracy, there are major health issues such as obesity and mental health problems, all long term benefit claimants are in fuel poverty and there is a huge housing crisis, even before the new welfare reforms. Get real, to compare those on benefits to the middle classes is ridiculous. You have no idea.

Scarlett - I would then wonder why in a country that essentially offers FREE state education and a FREE health service, people don't have a basic grasp of literacy and numeracy or have major health issues?

Housing crisis - get it. But then even DH and I with our professional careers are suffering from it.

Seriously, a lot of people in developing countries would like to have what people get here. I think someone else - other than me - deserves a wake-up call.

In contrast, middle classes in other countries have it a whole damn lot better than in the UK...

Well clearly it is the child's fault that after going to school for fourteen years they leave unable to write and what silly parents they have for only buying cheap processed foods!

You seem to have a limited grasp of the poverty cycle and I am too tired to explain it, but I can confidently say that those with the least in society have been failed by the government on many levels for a very long time. The education system has a lot to answer for.

... I mean that's what makes me annoyed about some people. You get a FREE and COMPULSORY state education that lasts for like a minimum of 12 years (?!?), and yet, somehow... you manage to not even get a basic grasp of literacy and numeracy?

Seriously???

What did people do in those 12 years? And how can some people in developing countries without that kind of benefit do better than them?!

Ok, firstly it is not the child's fault.

Taking Edinburgh, where I live, as an example and where 25% of young people are not in employment, training or education, I believe that the most deprived are being failed by both poor parenting for countless reasons but essentially the parents have been poorly parented themselves, and also by poor schools in the deprived areas. In Edinburgh, the comprehensive system isn't really that comprehensive as it is done on catchment. The poorest children are generally in under performing schools in their own areas being pretty much left to under achieve. I was in one such school a few weeks ago and to say I was appalled is an understatement and the teachers have to take some responsibility for that.

Scarlett - what do you expect the government to do though (and everyone else has to pay for it, by the way)?

It is not exactly the child's fault that they leave school without being able to write - but how do some developing countries do it then? Because I can tell you, they have had worse backgrounds, and yet manage to learn something their UK counterparts couldn't... that's odd.

And the cheap processed food - at least they actually get food, unlike in some other parts of the world.

This is a developed world problem for sure... you have to admit it yourself.

You can't remove all responsibility from citizens. The government can't do everything for them. At some point they have to do things by themselves. They are provided with free schooling and healthcare. So what's next? Personal tutors? Nutritionists?

If the country continues like this, we'll end up with people who will constantly blame the system, etc. ...never once will look at themselves. Not sure whether that's a place where I want to live in.

Tasmania- are you American?