Why on earth would you go state if you could afford private?

[Schmedz]

This thread is for Maisie and happygardening . I like dares!

[fairimum]

guarantee a better education even!

[TiffIsKool]

seeker - please cite the comps where a significant number of students get AAA or higher.

Or are you going to use significant as meaning more that a handful, to make your point?

[adeucalione]

muminlondon - I think I probably agree that independent schools get better A level results for their pupils' ability and motivation, which is why things change at university, but this is not maintained beyond university, where independently educated children tend to do better .

[seeker]

Tiff- just look at the list of top state schools for a level. Of course they will mostly be selective schools, by definition. But there are comprehensives there. I just don't want the the myth that you can only do well at private or selective schools to grow any more legs.

[TiffIsKool]

adeu - I've only read the article and not the original report but I don't think that you can draw those conclusions from what's in the article

City firms are usually the high payers. They tend to favour Oxbridge graduates which tend to be MC. So your 1st class Hons WC grad from Exeter will be paid less because he isn't an Oxbridge grad as.opposed to him being WC.

Also, if you take your MC Oxbridge Egyptology grad and compare him to a WC computer science grad, I suspect the latter is more gainfully employed and on a higher salary.

In order to conclude that WC students don't land the plum jobs you need to take students from the same Uni, same degree subject and classification, and compare job destinations.

I am not that naive that I believe a posh accent doesnt help to land you a job in the Foreign and Commonwealt Office. I'm just saying that the article doesnt support that conclusion.

[TiffIsKool]

seeker - feel free to name these comps.

[Tasmania]

seeker

What do you mean they take more privates (and not of the military kind) and selectives?

If you look at the population as a whole - it is no surprise that privates and selectives would "churn out" more A's. That's what these establishments are SET OUT to do. They select people based on ability and really give them the kind of education that might not be "right" for a less able student. Students attending these are also more likely to choose the traditional subjects - the "facilitating" subjects.

A comprehensive that churns out 98% of A's, in my opinion is not a proper comprehensive... unless of course, they make their students choose subjects where they are likely to get an A - which at times happens to not be traditional subjects, and therefore less likely to get them into a RG uni.

If we get rid of all private schools tomorrow - I can assure you, that the intake would still be similar, because as you, seeker, rightly say... these selective/private schools often take the cream of all students. They would still be the ones more likely to apply to RG unis, and would still b the ones more likely to fill it in numbers. BUT you would no longer have anything to rant about because they are all in a comp. Would you think that things would change if ALL of them went to a comp? If you say, their performance would drastically go down, then that's one hell of a good reason to go private.

[maisiejoe123]

Tiff, I got into the same situation as you are in with Seeker. She does have children at a GS and a sec modern. She appealed when her DS didnt pass the 11+ so clearly she is interested in grammars.

Under 60% of pupils take the 11+ and I couldnt understand why she would let her children take a test to go to a school system that she claims to hate....

She says she cannot move house.

So, tbh I think she has a view about the comp system which is idealistic. So, dont worry about her saying she doesnt believe in selective education. Its only a leftie response when they are caught out using the system they claim to hate.

Very strange tbh....

[maisiejoe123]

And the view that comps churn out massive amounts of AAA and higher...

What all of them! What if like Seeker you couldnt move to the catchment area of these 'ideal schools'. What would happen then? You make the best decisions based on your personal circumstances...

Comp's by defination take all abilities. It really isnt possible for the end results to be over 90% success in exams. By default that isnt what they are there for.

They are set up for ALL abilities and hopefully will stream accordingly.

[adeucalione]

seeker I've just looked at the BBC's secondary school league tables for 2012 , based on AS/A level results, and the first non-selective school I came to was The Blue Coat C of E School in Oldham. Yet when I looked at the school's details on the Department for Education website it showed that only 9% of their students achieved AAB in facilitating subjects, and 14% achieved AAB including two facilitating subjects. I don't think this compares very favourably with the independent sector at all?

[maisiejoe123]

Adeucalione - Seeker has 'ideal' views. The reality is something different.

[happygardening]

I get the impression that boys at my Ds's school are very carefully targeted at the right university for them maybe this accounts for the high % into Oxbridge and a further 10-12 % into the Ivy League etc but nearly 90% are getting A's of which over 50% are A*'s. Perhaps the "give it a go what have got to loose" attitude is not actually that successful.
IMO there a variety of reasons why children from independent sector don't do so well at Uni. My story is only anecdotal but I'll tell it anyway Henry's parents are very pushy and ambitious he's been pushed since he was able to sit up flash cards times tables piano reading etc etc all through his prep his ambitious parents have coached and tutored him at 13 he get a scholarship into a good school he is pretty bright don't get wrong but no genius. All through his senior school more pushing he has little social life few out of school activities it's all work work work. He can't rember not being told that he should aim for Oxbridge. At 18 he gets a place at Oxbridge inevitably gets the grades and off he goes. After 18 yrs of his parents breathing down the back of his neck organising his every waking moment so that he can study and constant pressure to do well he's finds freedom what happens he pisses it up the wall every night and fails his exams and get chucked out!

[wordfactory]

Well it seems to succeed ok Happy. Around half go to Oxbridge. So I've no reason to think their attitude is wrong.

[maisiejoe123]

Happy - I do see instances of this pushing and pushing your child to do well academically. These boys are never available for sleepovers or playdates and sometimes it is a cultural thing (am I allowed to say that?)

Their parents are constantly at the school demanding this and that for their child who must be motified when they see their parents striding up the school drive. We are at a private school and what I would say is sometimes it doesnt take until the pupils reach 18 to get the backlash.

Its horrible to see tbh.

Mid teen boys are not renowed for listening to their parents..

[Tasmania]

I'm not sure what seeker's experience of the comprehensive system entails. It's probably just as much as mine.

But having friends/family who have been to one, and friends whose DCs are subjected to one... I'd gladly opt out.

[TiffIsKool]

happy - and state school pupils don't go to university and spend the next three years partying at the expense of their studying do they?

I have no thoughts on whether students from the indie sector do better or worst but it's a leap to suggest that many will fall down because there is no pushy parent looking over their shoulder. Some students will flounder at university regardless of background. One can even suggest that some state school kids flounder because they spent the last x years not being hot housed.

[maisiejoe123]

Yes, its great for some to believe in a left wing ideal. Not for them of course - just for the rest of us...

Seeker would love a comp set up with her ideals of course. Sadly (or perhaps not for her!) she is unable to apply to it and is 'forced' to use the grammars..

[seeker]

And in general the children of the rich and/or privileged will continue to take up the lion's share of the places at RG univeraities. Obviously there are lots of very clever rich and/or privileged children. But threre must be an equal number of poor and/or disadvantaged children too. Surely? Surely?

[maisiejoe123]

Now, one of the benefits of boarding is that it does prepare you for being away from home!

Some people who have NEVER been away from home will flouder. Its bound to happen. State, grammar or private....

And for those of you are thinking that they are organised and told where to go 24 hours a day.

Have you ever tried to tell a 16 year old what to do....

[sherbetpips]

Urgh this always makes me feel guilty especially as my parents scraped by to put 4 of us through private school.
Honest answer I just dont want to spend that sort of money on education when the local state school is great. Hopefully it will mean we will have some spare for a decent uni education (but I doubt it as we spend money like water).

[Tasmania]

maisiejoe123

It takes a good balance to "push" a kid. From what I've seen, kids that gets pushed into one thing only (e.g. academics) and have no other outlet (e.g. drama, sports, music) are more likely to "play up" later on, as it's incredibly frustrating to do just one thing over and over again. Kids who are exposed to a wider range of things, will tend to like at least on of what he/she is doing, and sometimes lives for that moment during the day.

I had a Tiger Mum (she changed completely for my brother - eldest child always bears the brunt of things), so I can sort of see why I someone would play up.

[sherbetpips]

Worth mentioning as well that I opted out of my private school in 3rd year seniors because they were limiting our options for GCSE's due to the smaller number of pupils they simply couldnt offer the range of subjects that the local comprehensive could. Was much happier there if I am honest as it was near to home and I finally made friends who lived locally.

[happygardening]

I'm was a mature student 7 yrs ago I know exactly what what those from both sectors do but I think many in independent ed are under enourmous pressure from both their parents and the school many will have been since their Pre prep days and just go mad a uni.

[grovel]

The sense I get from DS's friends is that you should go for Oxbridge if you are genuinely excited by the prospect of studying your subject in-depth for another 3 years. If you are going to university primarily because the job market demands that you get a 2.1 from somewhere "good", you'll probably be happier at Bristol, Exeter, Durham, London etc. Yes, you have to work hard at these places but they have (according to the young I know) an atmosphere of "work hard, play hard" which nowadays is less the case at Oxbridge (more "work hard").

[maisiejoe123]

If the local state school is great why wouldnt you use it. However for some it isnt and they need a rethink.

One could move house of course and buy our way into a great catchment area which IMHO is the same as buying private. But moving house can be very expensive and with our buying system in this country it is a wonder any houses change hands!

Only a few more responses and we will get to 1000's. Wow. And I only made the comment which is the title of this thread in jest......