What's the educational argument for so many holidays?

[TinTinsSexySister]

Just that really.

Are there any educational benefits to frequent school holidays or are they just an historical hangover? Educationally speaking, would we be worse or better off adopting the US system?

See, I don't think your system does have the needs of the child at its heart. It would do very nicely for middle-class working parents who would like to be able to choose when to go away, but the most impoverished kids would be in school ALL THE TIME, and that would not be advantageous to anyone. Parenting is far more inportant in the development of children than schooling.

i have tried to ask questions of you in good faith, only to be told fgs it isn't difficult or i'm not a policy maker

i think i am done here. to be fair, i think your way of arguing closely mirrors government consultation strategies so thanks for the advance practice i guess

Yes, you've countered them with hr brilliant "I'm not a policy maker"

For the record, I am a secondary school teacher, and as I teach in a very deprived area, would possibly be in favour of shorter holidays, as my students regress terribly in terms of skills and behaviour over the summer. I mentioned this upthread but was threatened with various deities, so disappeared for a while (scared of deities). I am also a FT working tax paying parent. I use childcare in the holidays to enable me to run holiday schools.

However, Five I am curious as to how you would manage controlled assessments under your flexible system. At the moment, if Pupil A is absent during her assessment (which has to be supervised over 2 or 3 lessons), we have to find time outside the curriculum to redo it. How would that work with multiple pupils coming and going?

How would it work in subjects like Drama and PE where exam marks are based on group work? Are you thinking of going back to an individual, exam only system? (genuine question, not snarky).

I must admit to feeling frustrated that only teachers seem to be given the responsibility for covering everyone's childcare, it's not within our power to do this. And I agree that employers at large might like to consider flexible working for parents, not just schools.

I am willing to consider change, but think that it would require a seismic change in terms of time tabling, curriculum and all the school staff it involves, not just teachers.

'he most impoverished kids would be in school ALL THE TIME, and that would not be advantageous to anyone. Parenting is far more important in the development of children than schooling.

As opposed to on the streets? Or in poor quality and costly childcare (which might in the end be the reason a parent has to give up work)

My system would allow 6 weeks of supervised leisure etc and catch up.

Of course teachers can see the benefits of 6 weeks holiday for themselves and their kids but they fail to see that it's a pain in the arse and sometimes downright dangerous for disadvantaged kids.

And not just disadvantaged kids either. Few working parents aprat fromt eachers get 6 weeks off in summer and have to rely on a mish mash of often inadequate provisions. You hear this all the time fromparents on here.

There's a troubling lack of concern for working parents other than teachers and their kids from the people who you'd have hoped would be most concerend abou thtem.

That's not fair evil and chibi. I have given really quite detailed responses to the quesitons and objections. It's a bit off to expect me to put forward a budget and a timetable!!

Lizzie, controlled assessments are going anyway as I understand it but I envisage a rota system such that compulsory modules would always be repeated at least once. It would no longer make sense or be possible for parents to take their kids out during term time (as happens now) because they could take their holiday at any point during the school year by opting for a holiday 'unit' which might be the full 6 weeks or 2 or 3 weeks combined with 2 or 3 weeks leisure/ extra curricular/catch up where it wouldn't matter if kids missed some of it.

There would also be a huge advantage for sick kids or struggling kids or even home educated kids as there would always be an opportuntiy to repeat key units or dip in and out of school to complete individual units.

THe other thing, Evil and Exotic, is that if you look back over the thread there are as many people open to change (even if they're not quite sure what this would look like) or more as those against it, it's just that they're dipping in and out. Those against change are, predictably, the teachers who have most to lose. Those in favour, are predictably, the working paretns who have most to gain but also some teachers.

Or I should say teachers who PERCEIVE they have most to lose. I see many advantages even as a teacher as did teacherwith2kids, both in terms of benefits to the kids and society as a whole but also personally in terms of spreading the workload and having my unpaid hours recongized.

Oh, come on. The only parents who appreciate long school holidays are those fortunate enough to be able to take them too or have excellent childcare.

So, it again comes down to the fact that holidays are great for those able to enjoy them but not for those who foot the bill for them in all sorts of ways.

No point in continuing since you are clearly convinced you've found the solution to all society's ills. Well done.

'but most do not want a rolling system of opt in / opt out modules to keep schools open year round and keep children occupied by the state so their parents can lead a fuller work life.'

I refer you to my previous comment. There is no such evidence that 'most do not want a rolling system' even on this thread. The people arguing in favour of the status quo are those fortunate enough to be able to enjoy those holidays often at the expense of parents who themselves are working to pay taxes to fund teachers and to pay for the childcare.

Lizzie - 'I am open to change'
CambridgeBlue - 'But as a working parent (and I know some teachers fall into this category) there's no doubt that the current system (9-3 school day, long holidays) is incompatible with the modern way of working.'

Thanks five, I take your point about CAs going. Would you examine students after each module then, or at the end of a Key Stage? (Genuinely interested, trying to understand your proposal).

I think that aside from the timetabling/staffing issues, one of the problems would be that your system might not work for children whose parents aren't able/ willing/ in possession of enough free time to engage with it. It will take a lot of careful planning/ thinking to ensure students negotiate the choices within the system. If it is partly designed to give parents choice of holiday time, it can't all be led by the school.

Incidentally has anyone seen Mr G's proposals for the new English curriculum?The sheer amount of material to be got through would be difficult in a Grammar school, let alone any other. I can't see how this would fit in to the current system, let alone a more flexible system.

Ben - 'agree that summer holiday are to long'

louisablue 'I do think there must be some way of making the school system fit into the modern world. The majority of parents work and the current system means we need a piecemeal childcare solution that covers the short school day during term (resulting in two transfers per day between school and wrap-around care) and then the school holidays.'

teacher - 'As a teacher, I feel uncomfortable with the idea that teachers UNIQUELY deserve time with their children via long holidays.'

MoreBeta - 'Its easy to see why there is so much resentment about how the school year works and why it tends to be expressed as resentment about teachers long holidays. Its not that parents think teachers should work longer or harder.

They just resent being told that teachers have an untouchable work year that is so out of step with the rest of the working world that it effectively prevents some parents going to work. This is especially so in poor families that really need the extra income.

That is quite troubling for society.'

Lizzie, Mr Gove has some truly scary ideas.

I agree about the negotiation of choices but I think potentially that could be really exciting. It could be brilliant way of offering units for G & T but also the opportunity to consolidate learning AND give leisure options to kids who might be struggling with school and home life.

There are kids who, let's face it, would really benefit from being given the opportunity to do things that a lot of us take for granted like go to a restaurant or swimming or to the cinema or even go for a country walk. And actually this again isn't just disadvantaged kids but kids whose parents have incredibly demanding jobs.

Right, really must go now.

Fivecandles - you failed spectacularly to respond to the solution I suggested earlier (bottom of either p19 or p20). This is a solution that would solve the issue but not affect those teachers that want to keep their holidays (one of the only but definitely a real perk of the job). Why is that???

fivecandles* - "..... personally in terms of spreading the workload and having my unpaid hours recongized. "

I really can't understand why any employee would not want that.

What is confusing me on this thread is how different teachers seem to see their 'hours' so differently. Some see directed or contact hours as what they get paid for and any work they do in holidays as unpaid. Some see holidays as unpaid and they do not work at all in them. Others seem to approach it more on the basis of a profesison where you get paid a certain amount every month and then do the work necessary to deliver the work to a professional standard.

I do actually see these very different attitudes being played out in RL in my school. Some teachers and it is mainly the female ones very obviously and clearly see it as a job they fit around their DCs and very obvioulsy go at 4 pm and never do anything outside the strict confines of the school day. They very clearly see it as a part time job that suits them. Others seem to take a more professional approach and work 9 - 5. There really is a very obvious divide in my RL and on this thread and it seems as if teachers can define their role and the hours more or less as they please.

Surely a starting point is a properly defined and properly salaried number of hours and holidays per year. It all seems too ad hoc.

fivecandles. Are you Michael Gove? Because if so, get stuffed. And if not, then why are you spending so much time working out your perfect system? It isn't going to happen.

If anything, thanks to the absolutely ridiculous approach this government have taken to smashing up the state education system, schools are going to set their own individual holidays, pay and conditions, entrance requirements etched and we will be left with a total jumble.

I am off now to plan a unit for next half term - which will cross into the Summer term as well. Silly me...

I completely agree Tiggy. And this would particularly affect those parents in lower paid non- professional occupations, who have more to lose if they don't capitulate to an employer. The children whose parents are already economically independent and empowered would benefit, that's great, but the children of those who are disenfranchised would fall further into the gaps.