Changes to 11-plus to stop middle-class parents 'buying' access to grammars by hiring tutors

[breadandbutterfly]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241411/Changes-11-plus-stop-parents-buying-access-selective-schools-hiring-tutors-children.html

Similar article in the Times apparently but paywall.

It is not wrong to aspire or value education. My parents are very much working class but they had aspirations for us & see education as a way to a better life.

Education shouldn't depend on the aspirations of your parents. My family moved up purely due to aspirations and valuing education. I am where I am today purely due to pushy parents-and very thankful for it.
Money needs to be spent right at the start in areas where the imbalance could be addressed early.
Thankfully most of the country is fully comprehensive and we arguing about a very few grammar schools. They will not come back-there would be a huge fight if it was mooted.
When grammar schools were under threat and I was living in the grammar school area a man came and knocked on the door to get me to sign his petition 'save our grammar schools' I said 'NO -I will NOT' but sadly he beat a hasty retreat before I could go further-he knew I was a lost cause!

breadandbutterfly - people switch when they have to switch, they always have done, if there actually is employment elsewhere and if any subsequent employer is happy to take them on when they don't have experience in that area, yet... Maybe employers need to be more flexible and actually help train people up, rather than looking only at people who already work in their industries? You can't be flexible if people won't give you the chance to show you can be...

I was on a thread where teachers were saying we shouldn't look up to the german education system at all and a lot of German people think it's a bit crap.

"Education shouldn't depend on the aspirations of your parents."

Quite right. But state schools make it that way.

Private schools make it that way, too - far more so.

But German economic strength owes a lot to the German educational system. It demonstrates clearly that practical/technical skills are every bit as/more important than purely academic skills.

exotic- i'm not sure you're right that support is so low for grammars in this country - the huge numbers applying to grammars and the huge tutoring industry both stand as proof of the fact that grammars are v popular indeed.

You may have chosen to deliberately move out of a grammar school area but I think the majority of the traffic is in the opposite direction.

Are the huge numbers applying to do with support for grammars or because of fear of the alternatives?

I am not sure that the support for grammars is as huge as people on MN think. If that were so, I am quite sure that it would be a major plank of political parties manifestos.

breadandbutterfly - do you think that most of the 77% of people who live in a grammar school area but whose children fail the 11 plus think grammar schools are a good thing? Or do you think they spend more of their time worrying about the provision that they are left with? In which case, how can you argue that "huge numbers" support the grammar school system? Grammar schools do NOTHING to improve the education of the vast majority and any popularity they have is basically a result of peoples' inability to see any other type of education as worthwhile, hence the fact we don't have an education system like Germany's.

And rubbish that the majority of traffic is in the direction of grammar schools - Kent would be bursting at the seams if that were the case. Nobody is going to deliberately move to Kent if they think their child is going to fail the 11 plus.

"Money needs to be spent right at the start in areas where the imbalance could be addressed early."

This is the crux of the matter - at preschool really, even at pre-nursery. My health visitor (some years ago) brought a student to visit and watch my 2 year old doing jigsaws - she said most of the children she was involved in could not do this, and for many the free reading book that was given as part of some (probably long-gone) government scheme was the only book the child had.

We need to be doing more to give these children a good start in life.

do you think that most of the 77% of people who live in a grammar school area but whose children fail the 11 plus think grammar schools are a good thing? Or do you think they spend more of their time worrying about the provision that they are left with? In which case, how can you argue that "huge numbers" support the grammar school system? Grammar schools do NOTHING to improve the education of the vast majority and any popularity they have is basically a result of peoples' inability to see any other type of education as worthwhile

Well said rabbitstew!

You may have chosen to deliberately move out of a grammar school area but I think the majority of the traffic is in the opposite direction.

I agree with rabbitstew-why on earth would people flock to 11+ area when 77% will fail the exam? I have never heard a parent say 'we are moving to a secondary modern area because that is what we aspire to for our DC!' People who want them assume that their DC will be in the grammar school, and it is rather a silly assumption because I come across all sorts of people with high flying careers who failed the 11+.
I remember a DC that was in the school that I taught in years ago-she was a very academic girl and not only was she grammar school material, she was Head Girl grammar school type-she moved to Buckinghamshire in year 5 and I always remember a member of staff coming in and saying xxxxxxx failed 11+! We were all utterly astounded-if there was only one DC, to put money on, she was the one!
(Even MN parents who think their DC should pass will have failures!)

When my ds was in reception, and I was helping with reading, I made a note of the children I thought would pass the 11+. With one exception, I was right.

We certainly do need to spend the money early-you can spot it at 2 years old. Often people come on here with a list of things their 2 year old can do under the assumption they are exceptionally gifted. They are just a reasonably bright DC who has spent a lot of time with adults. If those from disadvantaged backgrounds were stimulated they would be equally bright seeming. If your parents never talk to you, never read you a book, never show you how to do jigsaws, never count etc etc you are never going to be able to do it on your own in isolation.

Looking back at statistics I see that there were 1,298 grammar schools in 1964 educating 25.7% of pupils in 2004 it was down to 164 with 4.6% of pupils and has remained constant in the number of schools but with a few more places. The largest number of pupils was 37.8% in 1947.
I can't see it going back-even at it's best over 60% would fail.
650 grammar schools closed between 1971 and 1978
We can debate all we like but they will not come back!
(I for one will campaign vigorously against any suggestion that they should!)

I am all for liberalisation in educational provision. if you believe for bizarre reasons of your own that somehow your child can only thrive if educated with children of similar intelligence, you get on with it. We have a long history in this country of schools educating children with a wide range if abilities very successfully - namely our more old-fashioned public schools. Personally, I'd rather go for a school which is aiming to emulate them - indeed, I have no choice, given the grammars and academic hothouses are too lazy and uncaring to bother with children like my DS, who is clever, biut has ASD.

seeker Tue 04-Dec-12 13:36:06
When my ds was in reception, and I was helping with reading, I made a note of the children I thought would pass the 11+. With one exception, I was right.

Flipping heck seeker why?

was their reading exceptional?
How do you judge a reception childs future?
or was it area they lived and what appeared to be nice middleclass parents who wrote in the reading diary?

1 mum at dds old school volunteered as reading helper last year sole purpose to see what other kids were doing in relation to hers.

I dont think people move to grammer areas but people travel across leas to get to one,

I dont see any public campaigns to improve education or axe grammers or get rid of them.

some academies are allowed to selct 10%of their admission.

I did notice when I worked in schools that those children who couldn't read by about 7 were in real danger of missing the boat education wise because so much of the curriculum depended on reading skills. We need a real push to make sure that once children get to junior school age they can read confidently.

Looking at some more stats, the following website:
www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/rsgateway/search.pl?keyw=066&q2=Search

shows that 58.6 per cent achieved 5 or more GCSEs at grade A* to C. Weren't 5 O levels (the equivalent in those days) the standard that a grammar school child was supposed to reach?

To me this suggests that a system which decrees that only ~25% of the school population are academic is short-changing another 25-30% capable of reaching the same standard.

Why, or how?

Why? Because I have always believed that the Kent Test is all about who you are, and where you come from rather than how bright you are or what you know. And, in my single, very unscientific, completely unreliable test, that proved to be the case.

How? Articulate, confident. Involved parents. Books at home. Well spoken (not necessarily posh, but most were). Bright, but not necessarily the brightest. I picked the children who best fitted the stereotype grammar school child. ( the real one, not the rose tinted idea of a "diamond in the rough"- a child from an uncaring, disaffected, feckless family whose intellect shone through the layer of disadvantage. The were children like that- but they didn't pass the 11+.)

I think that anyone can pick out the 5 yr old who is likely to be a dead cert to pass-what you can't do are pick out the bright ones who don't show it in conventional ways.

And they often turn out to be the really bright ones!

For what it is worth the infant teacher marked me out for a grammar school pass-I failed.

The Head Teacher at 11 also thought I would pass-he got me a resit-I failed!
The secondary modern thought I would pass at 12-they got me a resit-I failed!

It isn't as cut and dried as people think.