Changes to 11-plus to stop middle-class parents 'buying' access to grammars by hiring tutors

[breadandbutterfly]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241411/Changes-11-plus-stop-parents-buying-access-selective-schools-hiring-tutors-children.html

Similar article in the Times apparently but paywall.

I'm not going to have to eat my hat on YouTube then? Phew.

"There isn't a single person on here who could say, hand on heart, that they wanted grammar schools knowing their DC wouldn't get a place."

This, what exotic said. (and I say that as mother of 2 teens in a sec mod in a GS area).

The only people who still think GS is marvelous/force for social mobility/only place you find 'nice' children are those whose children are there already (and have not experienced some of the things my GS friends' children have) or those who think their own children will get in.

But exotic, you said you moved for schools.

" there are no grammar schools, there are a lot of high achieving professional parents who want the best for their DCs and use the state system"

This is merely another kind of selection - middle class area with motivated children, which results in a middle-class school with motivated pupils.

I was in a secondary modern, Playschool ,and by the time that I got to the grammar school at 16yrs, many of those who had a place at 11 had left after O'levels-therefore we should have swapped years before.

Of course it is NotSoBad-I am a complete hypocrite-I want the best for my DCs and the best is a good comprehensive. I want the best for all. The Grammar school system is never going to be the best for all.
The whole system needs changing-your house price shouldn't buy you a good school.

I absolutely agree with you exotic. A good 1/3 of my year didn't qualify for the sixth form (5 O levels required.) Their places were taken by girls coming from the secondary moderns with 5+ or in one case 10 O levels, who held their own easily.

@Pluto - Why are GSs for the middle classes? You don't have to be middle class in order to download free past papers from the Internet or to get your DCs to practise doing them.

There aren't any secrets known only to the Brotherhood of Expensive Tutors.

Come off it APMF - a bright child with disinterested parents doesn't stand a chance against the pushy middle class parent who has used private education or tutors or organised test papers themselves! People buy a place- simple as that.

Doing free test papers with your own child is not by any stretch of the imagination 'buying a place', exotic fruits.

I'd like to see a knackered single parent with several kids vying for her attention being able to devote time to doing past papers with her DC.

No- but you are going to be at a disadvantage against the private school DC or the tutor ,unless you are really clued up yourself. It also means that if you are very bright from a dysfunctional home, where your parents couldn't care less, you are at a severe disadvantage.

Well I'm a middle-class parent who went to private school, but I still dont understand this GS obsession?

My oldest didnt take the 11+ because she knew which school she wanted to go to; 2nd one did take it - simply because she wanted to - but did not pass (no tutoring, no downloaded papers) but they are both vvv happy at their secondary modern.

There is absolutely NO understanding that grade predictions are what they aim for, all their teachers use them as a base point rather than a target.

What I find interesting is talking to their GS friends, because they seem to find their lessons much less interesting, much more teaching to the exam etc, whereas my 'less academic' two are much more able to explore a subject in depth...

I can say, hand on heart, that i'd rather grammars existed irrespective of whether my kids get in. It may surprise you but grammar school would not have been my first choice for my dd - a faith comp would have been as my faith trumps even my desire for top quality education. But my dd chose grammar - and now she is there, I think she is right.

I know so many people who have been helped immeasurably by grammars and I am passionally in favour of a meritocracy. Grammar schools are the embodiment (albeit an imperfect one_) of meritocracy. The solution is, as suggested in the OP, to improve the mechanisms for choosing pupils and improving the alternatives - so that the alternative is NOT a secondary modern but a really top notch but less academic alternative, that kids and parents will actively choose.

Non-academic doesn't mean inferior, any more than non-sporty or non-artistic does. Jut different.

Or any home where the parents can't devote the time for one reason or another.

Some people are very blinkered.

Which to get back to the OP is where it would be wonderful if they could devise a test that they go into cold with utterly no idea of what they would find.

I think that all in together until 14yrs would be best and then choose which type of school.

really top notch but less academic alternative, that kids and parents will actively choose.

With 'actively choose' being the important part.

Why is a comprehensive which sets pupils accurately and reviews those sets not a perfect embodiment of meritocracy?

Good question Arisbottle.
(I will await answer)

"I know so many people who have been helped immeasurably by grammars and I am passionally in favour of a meritocracy. Grammar schools are the embodiment (albeit an imperfect one_) of meritocracy. The solution is, as suggested in the OP, to improve the mechanisms for choosing pupils and improving the alternatives - so that the alternative is NOT a secondary modern but a really top notch but less academic alternative, that kids and parents will actively choose.

Non-academic doesn't mean inferior, any more than non-sporty or non-artistic does. Jut different."

I'd point out the glaring inconsistencies here, but it really would be insulting everyone else's intelligence ....

Grammar schools are the embodiment (albeit an imperfect one_) of meritocracy.

I am not sure that they ever were, and I certainly don't get the impression that they are now.

The solution is, as suggested in the OP, to improve the mechanisms for choosing pupils and improving the alternatives - so that the alternative is NOT a secondary modern but a really top notch but less academic alternative, that kids and parents will actively choose.

As for improving secondary moderns so that they are a 'less academic' alternative - there was supposedly parity of esteem in the old pre-comprehensive days. No-one believed it then, and I doubt whether they would now.

For a meritocracy to truly work you need the starting place of level playing field. That's where the grammar system falls down.

"@Pluto - Why are GSs for the middle classes? You don't have to be middle class in order to download free past papers from the Internet or to get your DCs to practise doing them.

There aren't any secrets known only to the Brotherhood of Expensive Tutors."

But you have to have the education, confidence, knowledge of the system, leisure, inclination and energy to do this. Many people don't.

And to suggest that a grammar school is a meritocracy is to show a complete lack of understanding of how society works, never mind how the selective system works!

In ye olden days when I sat the 11 plus the exam was such that it was quite hard to see how you could be tutored for it (and no one was); you could do practice papers, which were given out free of charge in schools. I am at a loss to understand why this practice cannot be followed in those areas which have seen fit to retain it, perhaps at the same time as making available libraries or other quiet areas to those children who do not have a quiet place to work at home.