Should teachers have to take tougher tests before they qualify?

[Solopower1]

What do you think?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20083249

Schools usually have measures such as an Isolation Unit (basically a very boring, remote classroom staffed by a Behaviour Manager, where kids who have been removed from lessons can get on with work set by their usual teachers).

We usually have 2-6 students in Iso. Most of them are there for truancy or post-exclusion, rather than as a result of disruptive classrom behaviour.

We don't have a great deal of disruptive behaviour, although the place was a bloody madhouse ten years ago.

What's changed?

We got a 'satisfactory' from Ofsted for teaching & learning - they said that much of the teaching was outdated, dull & complacent.

In the subsequent perfect storm of teacher-kicking by the SLG, many of us pointed out how unsupported we were by them - behaviour management consisted of sending a 'good' student to the front office to say that there was a riot in room 24 & could one of the SLG come, please?

More often than not, no-one did.

We now have 'outstanding' teaching & a behaviour policy, including an 'on call' system which is actually followed, so the kids know that being a dick in lessons will result in a day staring at the wall & filling in worksheets in the Iso.

But most importantly, the teaching is now far far better, & the kids don't misbehave because the lessons are worthwhile.

I'm not saying it's easy - it took us a few years - but it isn't rocket science, it doesn't require draconian new sanctions, & it was never down to teachers being thick...

Nit, I said create a classroom where disruptive children learn core subjects. Eviltwins said put them in a different classroom which is said to makes them stop being disruptive - a good idea, I assume it usually works.

Well, until we do have teachers who can make quadratic equations exciting, what is supposed to be done about disruptive pupils? Tbh, I don't want my children's lessons disrupted by them - but then I still don't know what counts as disruptive... You're all making me very concerned about what awaits my children in secondary education!

"We now have 'outstanding' teaching & a behaviour policy, including an 'on call' system which is actually followed, so the kids know that being a dick in lessons will result in a day staring at the wall & filling in worksheets in the Iso.

But most importantly, the teaching is now far far better, & the kids don't misbehave because the lessons are worthwhile."

This all seems very good.

We're making different point, though, aren't we? You think a disruptive child should be taken out of class full stop. I recognise that a child who behaves disruptively should be removed for the rest of the lesson (with work to complete). Next lesson, clean slate.

And since you're not a teacher, let me explain it. Classroom management starts with well-planned, engaging lessons, which are possible no matter how dry the subject matter. If the students are engaged, they are less likely to disrupt. And it is far more complex than you give it credit for. Kids aren't just naughty or not naughty.

Ah - isolation unit. Isn't that similar to stopping them doing drama and music?

Could've saved myself a lengthy rant there, EvilTwins.

What you said. All of it.

Eviltwins, it doesn't matter what you say about classroom management starting with engaging lessons etc etc. Plainly there are very many teachers who can't manage the appalling behaviour with fabulous lesson planning. What do you want to do - sack them? Or until this generation dies, just leave the children to put up with the disruption?

So in the meantime you need something like this "iso unit" that raven describes.

Will there be work already planned for the children to be getting on with when they are removed from the lesson and sent to the isolation unit?

"I recognise that a child who behaves disruptively should be removed for the rest of the lesson (with work to complete). Next lesson, clean slate. "

Well the disruption will just go on and on then quite possibly. There needs to be something unpleasant (staring at the wall, raven suggests) to stop them doing it next time.

Missing drama when it is a GCSE is serious. Students have to be in lessons to be able to pass the course.

My point is the same as Raven's. if the students are engaged, they are far less likely to disrupt. And a talented teacher can make the driest of subjects interesting. I am lucky. I teach Performing Arts, which most kids enjoy.

Rabbitstew - they should have core subject lessons or work from the class to be done quietly.

Not quite, rabbitstew - you do a day in it if you've behaved appallingly/truanted/been excluded. So yes, you might miss drama or whatever if it happened to be on your timetable that day, but I doubt any teacher's going to advocate 'John's awful in Maths but lovely in Drama, let's make him spend his Drama lessons doing Maths in the Iso'!

That would be a level of nuts beyond even the Govian.

Missing vital maths teacher because somebody's being disruptive. Students have to understand and hear whats said in lessons to be able to pass the course.

Your point is NOT the same as ravens - unless you want children removed from a class and staring at the wall for a day.

Missing vital maths "teaching"

Brycie, Raven isn't saying that kids go to isolation and stay there. Her system is similar to mine- when I say the students "go to SLT", that's what it is- isolation.

& re: work being set - I get an email 'John's in the Iso tomorrow, please send work' from the Behaviour Manager.

I email her back some worksheets or whatever, as do the other 5 teachers who would normally teach him that day.

They also have a bank of revision booklets for each subject, so if I forget, they can say 'Right, English - raven hasn't set any work, so you're working through this...'

Yes, she is, and she's also saying the idea of missing maths but not drama is "nuts".

I mean, think what you think, but don't pretend it's what someone else thinks.

"So yes, you might miss drama or whatever if it happened to be on your timetable that day, but I doubt any teacher's going to advocate 'John's awful in Maths but lovely in Drama, let's make him spend his Drama lessons doing Maths in the Iso'!"

Oh I see what she is saying I misread. I therefore disagree with both of you. Otherwise the kid is just going to think, I hate maths, but I can get out of it and just do drama anyway which I like totally love. Win win.

Raven- do kids go to isolation and stay there? Or is it a fixed period, which is what is it in my school? (I know the answer, by the way, this is for Brycie's benefit) Are we talking about the same thing?

Brycie, you are suggesting that kids should be removed for long periods of time, unless I am totally misunderstanding you.

So, are the children in the isolation units having to teach themselves or fall behind whilst in the isolation units?

One teacher cannot turn behaviour around, unless they are amazing . I suspect ET is a much better classroom manager than me, most of us are as good as our back up. Most of my classes behave because they know that the school is a strong team rather than teachers working in isolation .

I have two difficult classes currently , I plan interesting and pacy lessons for these classes but there is always another option ready, usually bookwork incase someone has to be removed . Each of our faculties has an emergency timetable . Basically we know who has an empty class or an easy one and they are buddied up with someone who has a tough class . Therefore if students do not respond to sanctions and warnings they can be removed . There is also a member of SMT on call every lesson , so if students cannot be placed elsewhere they can be escorted away by a senior member of staff,

If a student goes from lesson to lesson causing chaos they will be educated in isolation for a period of time . If they cannot return to the classroom after intensive input from the behaviour team whilst in isolation they will be excluded .

ie do the worksheets relate to what was being taught in the lesson they were sent out of, so that they have to read up on what they missed, themselves?

As well as helping teachers who have to cope with particularly tough classes, do schools give thought to ensuring it isn't always the same children who end up in the tough classes when they aren't disruptive children themselves?

It's alright evil I can read.

For your benefit:

"We now have 'outstanding' teaching & a behaviour policy, including an 'on call' system which is actually followed, so the kids know that being a dick in lessons will result in a day staring at the wall & filling in worksheets in the Iso"