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Education

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Children arrive at school incapable of learning

404 replies

Brycie · 24/10/2012 07:24

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2222176/Chaotic-homes-creating-children-incapable-learning-says-Gove-Teachers-report-year-olds-nappies-speak-sentences.html I wonder what people think of this. Is this child abuse?

What kind of intervention can be offered? On a school thread the other day one poster was talking about how long it can take to teach a child to ask to be excused for the toilet. It seems nuts not to start intervention earlier. Can these children in danger be identified for special programmes from say age 2? How can a programme be created which "discriminates" against children from better organised families to prevent the Surestart problem (ie being overtaken by the enthusiastic parents who don't really need it as much). There must be lots of social workers here who have an opinion but other people too.

OP posts:
MrsCantSayAnything · 24/10/2012 18:05

Well I have happygardening....numerous times in fact.

EdgarAllanPond · 24/10/2012 18:07

what about Prince Charles?

i hear he still has someone do his toothpaste.

MrsDeVere · 24/10/2012 18:15

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MrsDeVere · 24/10/2012 18:17

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Bonsoir · 24/10/2012 18:18

Since vocabulary at age 3 is a highly correlated with reading fluency in the primary years, and reading fluency in the primary years is highly correlated with academic achievement, and academic achievement is highly correlated with independent adulthood, lessening the need for state (societal) support... yes, it is very important.

usualsuspect3 · 24/10/2012 18:19

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LittenTree · 24/10/2012 18:29

You see, I send my DC to school to be educated; to learn to read, write and basically grasp the knowledge our current society, of which they and I are a part, has deemed useful and necessary. Yes, along the way the social skills I have taught them will be reinforced; new social skills will be introduced that I will help reinforce at home.

I do not expect a teacher with 30 4 to 5 year old sitting (or rolling around, shrieking!) in front of her to become my DC's de facto parent. I would hope that she or the TA would assist by lagging in milestones DC to achieve them along with all the focused work I myself will be doing (and I will have discusses these issues with the teacher and asked advice!), but I am aware that if she has 30 such DCs, meaningful learning is unlikely to take place across the board!

Waaay earlier on in this thread, when someone asked what could be done, I listed my thoughts- or rather, I listed several moves that a society, via its government could make that may well have an impact on the number of DC born who are so badly parented. I also said that some of these things would be unpalatable, like making (usually!) women who are unsupported financially and socially attend mother and baby units to provide the support that might help them not introduce their own newborns into a cycle of welfare dependency and chaos. I suggested that handing paid-for flats available to such women was actually not necessarily in their best interests. I suggested that making the father financially responsible would both reduce the burden on the public purse and maybe encourage him to consider the consequences of unprotected sex. In short, preventing the conception of unplanned, unwanted DC rather than slamming the stable door after the horse has bolted. You'd have to read it all to get the gist!

I am also considering the point already made that many of these DC have 'undiagnosed SN' and wondering how much of the 'SN' has been caused by the rubbish, neglectful parenting? BUT once it has the 'SN' label, it 'becomes' the school's problem to deal with- and be judged for their 'failure'.

An interesting thing that has arisen in all this, almost as an aside, is the suggestion that a number of the infant offenders (joke!) who come to school with the skills of a 3 year old happen because they have parents who believe all development should be 'child-led' i.e. entirely at the pace the DC dictates. I have said that these families are not necessarily the focus of the DM article at all, but I guess they still constitute 'DC who are not school ready' thus may have a more difficult early school-experience as a result.

Finally, sadly I think decades of 'failed' intervention in the lives of these chaotic families demonstrates that chucking money at it doesn't seem to help- these families can't and won't access SureStart anyway, are suspicious and aggressive towards any 'intervention' thus their DC are doomed to repeat the cycle. Do I recall a figure stating that there are something like 250,000 'unreachable' families in the UK? Possibly recalled from a Labour 'initiative' where the plan was to tackle them on a family by family basis? Maybe that sort of focus might work but there'd have to be sticks and carrots in order to try and improve the outcome for the poor DC in such families to avoid an endless repetition.

mrz · 24/10/2012 18:31

I haven't read the whole thread yet so apologies if it's already been said
Can these children in danger be identified for special programmes from say age 2?
Since 2010 the most disadvantaged 2 year olds were given free nursery provision
www.education.gov.uk/childrenandyoungpeople/earlylearningandchildcare/delivery/free%20entitlement%20to%20early%20education/b0070114/eefortwoyearolds

colditz · 24/10/2012 18:41

Some of the children who arrive at school acting like three year olds WERE three year olds less than 3 months ago. Statistically, 25% of them were.

So are we really very shocked when children who, until very recently were three year olds, behave like three year olds?

MrsDeVere · 24/10/2012 18:41

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wordfactory · 24/10/2012 18:43

Yes, we only need so many doctors and lawyers but why the hell hsould they all come from the same background?

Isn't it about time we had more of a mix in positions of power and influence?

Bonsoir · 24/10/2012 18:45

MrsDeVere - my DP runs a large chain of shops, so I am well acquainted with the skills required to work in a shop. A high degree of language proficiency is necessary in many retail environments - these are not manual jobs, you know.

wordfactory · 24/10/2012 18:46

And yes I am bloody sad for those people who end up working in shops despiet having inaate intelligence and potential because their parents and background didn't give them opportuity for anyhtig else.

MrsDeVere · 24/10/2012 18:48

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MrsDeVere · 24/10/2012 18:50

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usualsuspect3 · 24/10/2012 18:50

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MrsDeVere · 24/10/2012 18:50

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Bonsoir · 24/10/2012 18:51

There is no problem working in a shop. But you need a lot of language skills in order to make sales of even quite simple products.

Bonsoir · 24/10/2012 18:52

Not unable to talk, but with language skills insufficiently developed for even minimum wage service jobs in a "nice" sector (like retail).

anklebitersmum · 24/10/2012 18:53

It is saddening that some parents don't care about their children's education or alternatively just don't see the advantages of it. Should these children be adandoned to their fate at the hands of their parent(s) because it's not actually physical abuse?

The children we're talking about clearly are not on the social services register, nor are they on the school register by age 16 I'd bet.

Not all these failed children are from broken homes and dole-ite families. Not all single parents are rubbish, not all married ones are good for their kids.

Political stance should not be changing the fact that these children are failing and they are not being helped in the right way.

There is a fault in the education sausage factory. Some sausages will inevitably be tastier than others but they should all be the same size and weight and look like a sausage, right? Hmm

wordfactory · 24/10/2012 18:56

Well my Mum who worked in shops all her life would say it's shit pay, you're on your feet all day, you often get rudeness...aim higher.

MrsDeVere · 24/10/2012 18:57

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EdgarAllanPond · 24/10/2012 18:57

there were people at university who didn't know how to change lightbulbs.

i don't think their parents had done them any favours on that score.

my dad managed to reach adulthood without using a washing machine.

his Mum hadn't done my mum any favours on that score.
some people just don't learn things without the need to.

although i am sure the DM article is a stupid attack on a bunch of people that don't need attacking (as they get paid per click, i'm not clicking), the trend towards less capable children does the adults they become no favours.

on the other hand the kind of post war upbringing my Mum had where she had to make her own bed up with hospital corners, shine and lace her own shoes etc or get a smack was just pointlessly brutal.
possibly the current trend is still in reaction to that?

MrsDeVere · 24/10/2012 18:59

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wordfactory · 24/10/2012 19:00

Well I've worked in shops and factories and on the market and what have you...and mostly the people there are not fullfilled. They do it because they don't have a lot of choice.

Half of them, given a different set of home circumstances could have done a heap of other stuff. That just can't be right.

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