Children arrive at school incapable of learning

[Brycie]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2222176/Chaotic-homes-creating-children-incapable-learning-says-Gove-Teachers-report-year-olds-nappies-speak-sentences.html I wonder what people think of this. Is this child abuse?

What kind of intervention can be offered? On a school thread the other day one poster was talking about how long it can take to teach a child to ask to be excused for the toilet. It seems nuts not to start intervention earlier. Can these children in danger be identified for special programmes from say age 2? How can a programme be created which "discriminates" against children from better organised families to prevent the Surestart problem (ie being overtaken by the enthusiastic parents who don't really need it as much). There must be lots of social workers here who have an opinion but other people too.

Ronaldo, I can only assume that you grew up in a happy, traditional household
No, I grew up very unhappily. I believe very much in a good solid family life though.
But this isnt about me and my upbringing.

My mother was the violent one.

And yet you think mothers should be forced to stay at home with the children for 5 years? Interesting.

And yet you think mothers should be forced to stay at home with the children for 5 years? Interesting

Well... personally I think there aresome females who should not have children at all. If they want to work, then work and forget children.

dinster I don't think you fall into the parent class. Any parent who's saying "we don't know, we're trying to find out and ultimately we want the best for ours" is being the best parent they can be.

Ds1 started school last year in nappies, wouldn't use a knife, very behind in writing found it hard to hold a pencil correctly etc, he lacks social skills etc and is now being assessed for Aspergers, I hope people didn't think we are a chaotic household! Am glad that dd who started scho this year is fully toilet trained, a great little writer/drawer, very sociable and uses a knife! Shows its not the household!

Yeah, why do we need social mobility eh Ronaldo? The world was a better place when the lower orders knew their place

Thanks anklebitersmum. It's hard not to feel judged - and to self-judge.

Yeah, why do we need social mobility eh Ronaldo? The world was a better place when the lower orders knew their place

I am only asking the same question as philosophers from Aristotle to Kant and Bentham have asked over the years. Whats wrong with that?

Social mobility isnt as big as people seem to think anyway. Its largely static even in this country where the idea of some sort of meritocracy has been sold to the plebs working people

I am interested at the number of people on here who are defensively citing their own DC's SN, daring anyone to judge them as being the type of 'chaotic' family as depicted in the original article.

I actually don't think it'd take an infant teacher more than one home visit and a couple of weeks in school to recognise the difference between a DC who might be exhibiting SN tendencies but who is from a loving, concerned, committed family, who turns up reliably, properly dressed, on time & fed, and gets handed back to a waiting parent at home time who is properly dressed, clean, polite and is immediately engaged with their DC- versus the type of parent the article is talking about.

well, people do judge my DC and us as being like that if they get a short glimpse, and pass comment..which is heightened by such stories in the media, which means I think it is relevant..not totally but it is a valid point

Yes, a sensible, on-the-ball type teacher might be able to tell at once, but from what I hear it's very common indeed for people seeking help with their child's SNs to be told their parenting is at fault, not to mention all the judging that goes on in public. I'm not surprised people are sensitive about it.

I don't mean to be defensive - I'm worried. Someone upthread said that there isn't much difference always between a child with a developmental delay and a child who has been developmentally delayed.

Without a clear SN diagnosis, it's difficult not to be concerned that it is my parenting that is causing my daughter to be behind her peers. This is what the article and many posters here are suggesting on a general level. And they may well be right.

ronaldo I think we need social mobility not only from the persepctive of humanity and fairness, but also from the perspective of deep seated selfishness.

By leaving potential untapped and too many DC languishing on the bottom step we make our society poorer both cutlturally and financially.

I come from one of the worst estates in Europe. If I had followed the track of my peers and extended family I would now be in a low paid job or unemployed. But I mobilised socially and IMVHO have been an asset to the UK, both in terms of the taxes I pay, the people I employ, the knowledge I have been able to pass on.

And my DC are also very likely to do the same. The cycle is broken.

I work with children and see well over a 1000 a year some are from privileged backgrounds and I don't live in Peckham but we do have our share of deprived children and many from "chaotic" families. I have never seen any children as delayed in their development as those described in this article and I can assure you in my line of work I would have done!
I not saying they don't exist but this is the Daily Mail blowing things out of proportion.

Actually, I think it's worse than that. I think it IS the Daily Mail denying the existence of learning and developmental disabilities which might contribute towards a child at age 4 still being in nappies and not being able to speak clearly, and blaming it ALL on the parents.

am tending to agree with you rabbit

I haven't read the whole thread, but I thought it was quite normal for 4 year old DC to arrive a school not being able to read , and I think many just 4 yos will not distinguish between numbers and letters whereas the almost 5 yos may do - am I so far off here?

Also, I would have assumed that YR children in nappies and not being able to speak in sentences may have SEN.

On the other hand, helping chaotic families is not an easy task, especially if they don't want 'interferrence' and don't go to SureStart. However, if Gove really wants to make a differnece it will be expensive because these families need a lot of support at home, and they often see social or support workers as the enemy who wants to take their DC or interfere.

Not being able to read isn't unusual. Letter and number recognition for the majority is fairly standard though-like colours and basic shapes. Some of these children are the ones who slip past the usual netting..no health visitors, no coffee mornings where people chat about milestones no social services involvement.

Quite frankly the government are not going to do a damn thing to help these kids. Their parents aren't shouting from the rooftops because they either don't care or don't get it. Teachers who do give a tuppenny have nowhere to go if the parents say "no, not mine" or get anti about the teacher's 'motives' for bringing the subject up. If you're the NRP of an at risk child you'd better have a bottomless purse/wallet because no-one's going to help you-despite all the big political talk in the Mail.

I as a society we have become too easily offended that it makes tackling this issue very difficult. I think detection can start at birth - a midwife friend once told me that one of the worst things about her job was handing a beautiful baby over to the mother/father and wondering what sort of life that beautiful baby would have.

I think we as a society should be disccouraging teenage pregnancies and good for you if you were a teenage mum and made a sucess out of it. The reality is really different. Women are key to breaking these cycles.

We need to stop having children with multiple partners and mirroring celebrity lives like Jordan, Mel B, ulrica jonsson.

"I have yet to meet a child whose delays are caused by their parents."

Oh come on. It is well documented that the children of less educated and less involved parents have vocabularies that are around 1/3 of the size of their peers with highly educated and involved parents by the age of three. You have never met one of those children?

I'm not denying the existence of developmental delays etcas many of the children I work with have these but as MrsDevere says not caused by their parents.
The Daily Mail appeals for smug middle class readers who don't want themselves or their children to have contact with children from "chaotic homes" who might effect their child's learning. The fact that the OP wondered whether this is child abuse is insulting at the very worse case scenario it would be defined as a child in need. With proper support most children from chaotic families can thrive most parents even the "chaotic" want to do the right thing for their children but this goverment is busy cutting back the budgets of social services so the right help is getting thinner on the ground.

We not talking speach delays here the daily mail sites 5 year olds still in nappies who don't know their own names in 27 yrs with children I have never seen a normal healthy child who hasn't been abused and without learning difficulties who wears nappies and doesn't know his own name.

The doesnt know his/her own name bit. With many DC called Kyle, Chaedoney or similar it may be that the kids arejust confused when the rest of the class shares their name. I can remember once counting five Kylies, Kayleighs,Kaylies, Kyles Kales and Kye's (isnt that Cornish for dog?) and various versions in a class I taught in one school. No wonder they do not know their names.