My unreserved apologies

[jabed]

It seems I have upset MN posters.

I am sorry if you have been upset by me. I apologise.

I wont do it again.

Jabed

It's not what you say it's the way that you say it isn't it?

Well, of course people are defensive, because they feel they are being attacked.

Xenia is defensive because she clearly thinks women have to fight very hard to get what they deserve and that men still rule the roost and are all using women as drudges - in other words, all men are the same and all women should be, too, to fight the good fight, which must always be enjoyable because there's no room for people not enjoying it, they're just pathetic drudges whose opinions should be squashed down and ignored;

SAHMs get defensive because people like Xenia tell them that even if they think they are happy and have the total respect and support of their husband and are doing what they want, they are wrong and harmful people who do other women down and couldn't possibly be happy really, just brainwashed;

and Silibilimili gets defensive because she works in a world where she does feel disadvantaged to be a woman and so agrees with everything Xenia says (in slightly more muted tones) - she seems to think that women shouldn't actually do what they want unless what they want to do is get paid work.

etc,etc

Which is probably why Silibilimili thinks I ought to be in one "camp" or the other and dislikes my posts because she can't tell where I'm coming from - you have to take sides, apparently.

All welcome to join me in the 'bemused and bewildered' camp.

sparkling. I am already there....

slipshod having responded carefully to your own (ad hominem) attack on me, I'd really appreciate a response if you get time.

I think I was pretty careful not to use any language which could be described as an 'attack.' Neither did I use an ad hominem argument as I did not denigrate your character. I deliberately referred to the impression conveyed in your posts through the points you choose to pick up on and the language and tone you use, not to you as a personality. This is not an attack on the person but on the argument.

I know nothing about you so would not attack you but observe that you have opinions often strongly conveyed. Nothing wrong with that. My observation though is that your posts suggest you appear to become quite offended quite easily by ideas but do not refer to further arguments in the offending post or other posts which, when I read them, seem to me to balance those ideas to some degree. I cannot and do not want to feel offended by people simply expressing different philosophies and experiences to mine. I feel unable to contribute anything when comments become personal and for me, the discussion is spoiled.

I am btw currently a SAHM and very happy that way. I do not mind having my way of life challenged robustly. Why should I not be froced to question my choices? With a partner at the highest level in one of the World's most famous multi-nationals I am acutely aware of issues of diversity and the problems women have in reaching the top and of the problems companies have in supporting and retaining this talent if they also become mothers. (which some of the most senior do not - or they have a SAHD - not uncommon at the highest levels in this company)

It is becoming increasingly clear to me that affirmative action such as not letting meetings run over at the day's end and other flexible practices are useful to women but are rarely used by men, making working life unequal between the sexes. Despite officially being sanctioned and approved of, society is currently at a point where this is seen subliminally, I think as a sign of lesser commitment. Certainly ambitious young men tend not to take advantage. Either capitalism changes to a more socialist kind of capitalism (does that make any sense ) - and I cannot see that happening, especially in a recession where ambitious people are working hard to keep their jobs - or men take exactly 50% of responsibility for family life so that they also take their turn in leaving the office early and it becomes normal and not a subliminal sign of lesser commitment. This is being discussed more and more but it is going to take more time and hammering home.

Until that happens, families need one parent to be less ambitious. In our case, that parent is me, and I am fine with it, but I acknowledge its imperfections too. I do think it is worth emphasising that point to younger women so that if they make a similar choice they are doing it from an informed position and are not just accepting of the idea that all women are programmed to lose interest in their careers when motherhood beckons. S

So instead of getting offended by Xenia, I smile at some of her funnier comments but will make sure my own daughters are aware of how simple it is to find yourself in a vulnerable financial position or to fail to fulfill certain career aspirations. If they decide to weave baskets (an alternative career Xenia has often said is acceptable if it is freely chosen) it will be a positive and informed choice.

And sorry to keep on, but i observe that the intellectual satisfaction of working in a job which pushes the boundaries of science and human invention is a precious thing as are many other well paying jobs which add to the prosperity and progress of the World. If you get paid well too then great.

I see high achieving, high earners giving up time to advise and assist governments and NGOs in developing countries etc. They will also give advice (and for all I know money too) freely to charities. Xenia has said she does pro-bono work. I don't see them as insecure money-obsessed people. They are very clever though, think hard about their lives and the World and don't get offended or defensive when their positions and World view is challenged, often very publically.

slipshodsybl - careful, you're almost as wordy as I am .

On the whole I agree with you. It should never be a simple choice to stay at home, or to work full time, or to work part time. You must go into it with your eyes open and understand the risks and benefits and then not sit back and assume making that calculation once in your life is sufficient - the risks and benefits change over time. If I had been in a position where I had adored my career, I wouldn't have given it up, though, I know that, because I would have had trouble getting back into it at an acceptable level later on and would always have felt I had missed out on something important. Instead, I would have adjusted the way in which I supported and nurtured my family. Whatever, I know my dh would have been supportive.

The reality is, though, I considered myself lucky to have an excuse to get out for a while and reinvent myself, because I was not happy with my career choices to date and therefore considered my career well down in my priorities at that time. This has also conveniently enabled me to spend some exceptionally happy years at home with my children - it is not at all boring, drudge work, it's wonderful and I find it fulfilling - and the chance to reconsider what really interests me and what I want to get out of life and give back. Lucky me. Most people aren't that lucky.

I also agree that at the moment, most couples have to work out which one is the most ambitious, or the most enamoured of their career (not necessarily the same thing). In my family, sometimes it's the women and sometimes it's the men. I do get annoyed, though, when some women go on about women's rights and the right for women not to be drudges, as though any man or woman who actually thinks that the role of the caregiver is worthy of huge respect is a spineless moron.

Excellent post shipshod. A sensible, coherent response. My husband has a similar job and I am happy to report that he holds no antiquated views on women. He does appoint women into very senior positions, and often, due the the ExPat nature of these jobs there are often SAH husbands. It is a non-issue.

I am a SAHM but I have also worked and I found my work extremely rewarding and enjoyable.

I think many of xenias post are written to cause offence, she says nasty things about people who are SAHM/low earners and I don't like it. It doesn't make for a good discussion and it hardly helps any of the people she says she thinks are downtrodden.

Her boastful comments are amusing, when I see her on a thread i can't wait to see how she is going to bring the discussion around to her achievements and island

I wish she would concentrate on her inspirational side. It's there, I have seen threads where she shares her drive and knowledge. I like that xenia not the nasty one.

Nice post rabbitstew. Gosh, this is all getting too sensible .

(ps my dh appears to like ironing - do you think I should get him to see a psychiatrist? ).

I would love to see Xenia on a fun thread. I wonder if she has an opinion on Wolef fleeces, the zombie invasion or watched Strictly Come Dancing?

If housewives don't like to be reminded they are unpaid and doing work most people couldn't stand and mostly they don't6 benefit their chiildren and hugely damage the position and cause of other working women by being home they probably need therapy. Of course many of us like a few domestic tasks and childcare but day in day out nothing else but being a housewife and no career is not something most women or men want and given it really does hurt women's achievements if you duck off home t bake cakes it is important women realise that sell out is terribly damaging. Yes most women are not very bright and would not have amounted to mcuh at work (and men too) but a few might. however if most just stay home we will never know and the few good ones will never rise to the top.

Wolef fleeces - never heard of it - some kind of clothing? Why would talk about a type of jumper be fun?
, the zombie invasion - is that some kind of computer game

or watched Strictly Come Dancing? - I don't watch television.

I am reading a book about North Korea. I sing most days. I do lots of fun things all the time which is something youc an do if you earn reasonable sums as it gives you the time to be a rounded person which a life of domestic servitude on low or no income dependent on male earnings never allows you.

I was going to reply to that Xenia but got to take my cake out of the oven before it burns so got to run....

careful, you're almost as wordy as I am

Whoops. Well I was trying not to be misunderstood. It was a bit wordy though.

I was going to reply to that Xenia but got to take my cake out of the oven before it burns so got to run

Bad luck Housework procrastinator. But it was just a cake. I missed my hair appointment, the school fete committee meeting, a coffee morning and my book club while I was typing mine.

This discussion got me thinking.....Will we ever overhear conversations like this, below, in the playground at pick-up time - and if not now, then when and if we did, what would we think??? and why would we think anything, if we did???..... and if we do a double-take and a re-think, doesn't that really indicate that true equality is still a long way off?:

Matthew: "I managed to get that 20% off nappies offer you told me about. Thanks mate!"

Andy: "Don't mention it. Hey, I'm thinking of taking that part time role we spoke about the other day, now little Alice is full-time at school and Henry's shooting up every day. Obviously it's a bit different from what I did before but I think I can manage it if Sarah can do the school run on Tuesdays."

Matthew: "Fantastic! Wish you luck mate. I tried to go back to the hedge funds, a couple of years ago but they wouldn't do school friendly hours. Still, I'd rather be there for the kids when they need me, you know and I actually enjoy helping out as a TA on a Fridays once a fortnight. Wendy isn't sure I've got time for that sort of thing, what with keeping on top of the shopping and cleaning. She moaned that the beds weren't made when she got in at 8.30pm last night! Honestly! She's no idea what I do all day...the laundry, the meal planning. It never ends, does it!"

Andy: "Ah well, you're lucky. Sarah's never there at all - just jet setting round the world, doing endless meetings in exotic places. Still, it was really important for me that one of us is at home, keeping on top of the little-uns needs. I think it's the most important job in the world really, though. Happy to give up my six figure salary and all that...and then it's only right really, isn't it, to support Sarah's career. She told me we may need to move to Dubai in a couple of years anyway. So there's no point in me trying to go back to work properly for many years yet really, if at all."

Matthew: "Hey, did you see on Dadsnet last night, that debate's still raging on about whether men should have as much right to go out to work and bring in the bucks, as the women? There's this really controversial duo - Menia and Wabed. Menia is like, so way out! Claims that children do better if the Dads go out to work too and earn pots of money! Can you imagine! I'm with Wabed, me, I really think a man's place is in the home. I know mums have an important role too but really, it's only us men who can really tune into our kids and 'be there' for them, isn't it?"

Andy: "Dunno...it got me thinking you know....If I went back to work, I wouldn't feel so guilty spending the money that Sarah brings in and we'd have a lot more too. Maybe we could think about sending Alice and Henry to the prep school instead of the local primary. Anyway, why should I have to be the one to abandon the career I worked hard to achieve all those years? I mean I was really valued at the bank. I got contracts for them that brought in millions and the bonuses were fantastic."

Matthew: "Well, maybe...but you'd never have been there to see your kid's first smile and her first steps and remember that day in the park when she and Ollie started chasing each other round the swings? Quality moments, mate, quality moments! The wife's missed all of that, hasn't she? You'll never get those moments back, never! No I'm all for a bit of 'me time' but a couple of hours as a TA will do me nicely, thank you."

Andy: "Blimey! Is that the time? I'll have to shoot off. Got to see if I can get hold of those special ballet shoes Henry needs for the school play. Did I tell you they've given him a starring role? He's really chuffed! You know, you're right really. I couldn't take him to all his extra ballet practises if I was working, could I and it's really important to cultivate his creativity. Of course Sarah doesn't understand at all. She tries to make it to some of his performances but I think deep down, she's really hoping he'll become more like little Alice - a whizz at maths and lego. She's already got Ally 'signed up' as a top enginner when she's older, I think, cos of the dosh you can earn nowadays! Poor Ally's only four for heck's sake! I just want her to me happy really. That's what it's all about, innit?"

Matthew: "Yeah. That's right mate. Anyway, must fly too. I want to have a go at that new flan you told me about yesterday. Wendy'll love it....IF she's actually back for dinner! Ah well, she's got better things to think about I guess. Anyway, might see you at aerobics later on, mate? OK."

I do get annoyed, though, when some women go on about women's rights and the right for women not to be drudges, as though any man or woman who actually thinks that the role of the caregiver is worthy of huge respect is a spineless moron

Yes. And privately I really think that most women have a wider take on what they want. Work seems to be just one part of that for the majority, even if an important part. But at present most power is still held by men. There's seem to me to be no harm in re iterating the message for those who are still making their choices. None of us has to change our own lives and I don't need anyone's approval to be ok with mine. Vive la difference.

Notforturning

Are you by any chance a frustrated screenwriter?

Wonderful, not for...

We're getting there. I am a huge optimist. I think Caitlin Moran in the Times said by 2020 women would on average earn more than their husbands. More girls get good degrees and more are having to marry lower earners which means when it comes to does Miss £50k a year give up work or Mr £20k they are likely to pick Mr £20k or hire childcare.

The economy is another issue too. We certainly probably have at least 5 very tough years and it is doubtful the West is in the ascendancy so there may be long term changes, much less welfare as we have no money to pay it, fewer women daring to risk being home etc

Thanks for that Xenia, I am guessing you won't be on any fun threads any time soon then and will be sticking to what you are best at.

I should have known that TV watching was a no-no in Xenia-world.

TV is for moronic housewives .
NotForTurning - I don't see why we'd have to hear conversations in the playground like that from men or women! I've never found myself having conversations like that in the school playground... However, if a house husband wanted to talk about that sort of thing, then I'd be quite happy for him to go ahead! I think those who would do a double take listening to that are those who think that men are incapable of being the one who stays at home to look after the children or who adjusts their work to fit around their kids. In other words, it is those who are happy with the age old stereotype of what men are like and what men want, but who want women's stereotype to change. Sorry, but I don't think you can change one without changing the other, because all that achieves is both men and women turning into men and nobody wanting to stay home with the kids or make any compromises for the kids. In fact, why on earth does anyone who can't afford a full time nanny and private education bother with kids???!!!.....

I sometimes watch something on iplayer - about an hour a month may be? I have about 30 yeras of cinema films to watch perhaps when I am over 80 and have time. That does not mean I don't have fun though. Fun means different things to different people and I always avoid sex threads on line and I never discuss boyfriends. We have a family wedding to plan. I do feel my life is brimming with fun even if fun for me is playing a Bach fugue, singing Purcell or doing bikram yoga or even if I'm allowed to mention it lying in the sun near the equator on my island. Fun a year ago was a trip to the island to collect plastic from the beach - a sort of cleaning holiday - the FT published my letter about it. I can be quite funny. I get huge satisfaction too from my children and also my work. I have bought a new bike this Autumn.

It's time for science to create an artificial male womb. We could then pump our husbands full of female hormones, implant a test tube baby in their new womb, get them to carry the kids and have a caesarean at the end of it, so no worrying about being too posh to push. And if the baby suckles on Daddy's nipple for long enough, even without the extra hormone injections, I understand he should be able to lactate eventually...

Hang on that is almost there in a sense. Some women choose not to bear their own genetic chidlren. It is not particularly expensive to hire a host mother to bear it - at present that is indeed a woman but it may not in future have to be.

@rabbit no it very isn't. TV is for ME.