My unreserved apologies

[jabed]

It seems I have upset MN posters.

I am sorry if you have been upset by me. I apologise.

I wont do it again.

Jabed

I also feel xenia means well and tries to inspire.

Inspire? Sili. To do what exactly?

spark, inspire women to do well. To go for it. I read her responses on the 'how to earn 1000 a month' thread and thought she gave good advice. Sometimes I'll conceived and arrogant but generally well meaning.

I'll = ill.

I like rabbit's posts, sili, but we have disagreed on plenty of stuff, so no, not the same.

I tend to find the majority of your posts come across as ad hominem attacks, and in that you remind me of no-one else at all.

Fabsmum, Just wanted to say that was a great post!

[TW2K worries about which other posters she reminds people of ... ]

I find when Xenia is being in reasonable mode, rather than rabid, she has some interesting thoughts and opinions. I find the same with jabed. I find silibilimili a bit dense at times...

I've been checking with some of my colleagues and NONE of us is either pissed or in the preamble, throes or after glow of tumultuous sex. We are clearly, uniformly, rubbish and boring and Letting The Side Down. :(

Maybe it's the engineer's brain - can't cope with too many words and complex feelings .

Don't see why I have to be in anyone's camp . I don't have any desire to force everyone to be like me.

Engineers brains. rabbit, so spot on. I prefer a concise, succinct post.

I don't think I am ad hominem. Oh dear!

Xenia the problem with your viewpoint is that you present two extremes - high flying, high earning super woman who can afford the best schools, a live in nanny etc, etc or a drudge. The reality is that most people will fall somewhere in the middle. If you take a group of about 30 people i know with children a similar age (oldest 6/7), some have happily stayed at home for a few years before resuming high flying jobs, a few worked full time from the outset, some have changed career, some have happily stayed at home and have git heavily involved i community stuff, and some work part time. As for me, I have my own business where I choose to work part time hours. It is important for me to pick up my dd1 from school so I do. I consider myself lucky and am happy with my balance. You seem to think I am letting myself and my children down by working part time.

The vast majority of my friends are happy. All are intelligent and educated women. I don't understand why in your works they have it wrong. And I find your assertion that women who are not like you are somehow lesser mortals arrogant in the extreme and frankly insulting. But I have said this to you many times do I have no idea why I am saying it again, it makes not a jot of difference.

fabsmum - agree with the majority of your post, however I think you are being just as 'cruel' (your words) as Xenia when you say:

"On a personal note, I chose to be at home with my children because I couldn't enjoy life when I was working and running a home. And I really, really treasure the time I spent with them. I wasn't thinking about turning them into captains of industry, I was just enjoying being with them. I honestly can't think of anything I could have done with my time that would have given me or them more happiness".

Ermm... I would have wanted that too but I had to pay a mortgage, its not a choice that's available to many, unless your partner can afford to pay the bills.

And with this -

"I think everyone has strengths and must play to them. Some women have amazing patience and creativity with small children, and for those mothers staying at home is fulfilling and exciting. I think children who have mothers like this are incredibly lucky. Other women have no patience and find caring with their small children boring and beneath them. Those women are best off contracting this care out to someone who will take pleasure in their child".

I think there's surely a middle ground between holy mary poppins and the reincarnation of myra hindley?? (i jest but you get the point).

Mordion if a colleague is capable of communicating whilst in the throes of tumultuous sex - respect. That's some multi-tasking :).

I just asked my DD aged 16 whether she thinks it is 'better' for DM's to be SAHM's or for them to work. I also asked her which she would respect the most. She replied that it completely depended on the family concerned and that she could equally respect a low paid worker, a SAHM or a high flyer, it would depend on what type off person they were.

Sounds about right to me!

Of not off

Have I really ever said anyone is a lesser mortal? I'd be surprised. I do think most adults find cleaning and hours of childcare rather dull and in all cultures men and women choose to outsource a good proportion of that to slaves, child's siblings, servants, others.

When we say this I will feel women have achieved equality and they can let their hair down and be housewives:
I just asked my DS aged 16 whether he thinks it is 'better' for DF's to be SAHF's or for them to work. I also asked him which he would respect the most. He replied that it completely depended on the family concerned and that he could equally respect a low paid worker, a SAHF or a high flyer, it would depend on what type off person they were. "

Why did the writer above not ask the question that way round? Because women are stll expected to do all the drudge dull stuff for no pay and little thanks and men get to have careers, more fun and more interesting lives because they have muggins mum at home earning nothnig whilst she serves everyone's needs doing endless housework and childcare.

xenia, I agree to the sentiment of your post. Then women say they are the new feminist by liking house work and staying a home, as they 'made that choice'.
Don't know who is right but if economic deprivation and borderline poverty is the result, I do not want to be part of the SAHM team.
For my daughter and fellow females I want equality too. So if that means I have a career that paves the way for them, so be it. It's a nice side effect.
Someone has to be the rosa parks of the working world.

xenia. I asked my DD about women because that was who YOU were talking about. You were slagging off saying what was wrong with being a SAHM.

I think you must have been very unlucky in your life if the men you have come across treat women with that much derision. I have only ever had men around me who treat me with respect regardless of whether I am working or at home. I have never felt pressurised into being a SAHM or into going out to work. I have the self confidence and respect from those around me to do what I want and what I thinks works best for our family.

..and yes xenia you regularly say awful things about SAHM. You are really quite insulting and very patronising. I think you have also mentioned your disdain for nurses, cleaners and other low paid workers too. In your posts you come across as very arrogant and boastful. You make good points, many of which I wholeheartedly agree with but I can't stand the way you are so horrible about other people.

xenia you can't call that one now, because your arguments are always completely gendered: it's the mother who should earn the fees, all fathers go and fuck someone else when the mother gets frumpy etc.

slipshod having responded carefully to your own (ad hominem) attack on me, I'd really appreciate a response if you get time.

You may not say "lesser mortals" but the implication is constantly there.

And as usual, you ignore the main point of my post. Out of 30 or so women I know, not one is unhappy or presents a negative role model to their children. And those women include sahm, wohm, business owners, part time workers, and people who took many years out and have gone back. Not one drudge or sex slave amongst them.

Please Do tell me what is so wrong with the choices they have made that work for their families?

We have had this argument so many times before across so many different threads. So here we go again.

There is nothing wrong with a woman choosing to stay at home either because she can afford to, or because her husband earns enough that she doesnt need to work, or being forced through economic factors to stay at home (many women cannot command high enough salaries to make working and paying for childcare an economically sound choice) so long as she is honest about the situation. There is something very wrong with women who rather than tell the truth about staying at home - either that they prefer it and can afford to do it, or that they can't afford not to do it- peddle the falsehoods that it is better for their children for them to stay at home, that their children would somehow be disadvantaged if they work or, worst of all, that mothers who stay at home are the only ones who really care about their famies and that those who work out money before family or are in some other way heartless cold or impatient unnatural monsters.

I like Xenia. I think she'd make a very stimulating and entertaining friend in RL (even though you would be constantly saying, "Now come on, Xenia, you know that's bollocks" ).

I have absolutely no idea who jabed is, though.

As you can probably tell xenia does irritate me a lot but I think I am probably in the majority in that I do not think it matters if a Mother (or Father) chooses to work or stay home as long as it works for that family.

What matters is that DC's are raised in happy, stable, supportive homes where they are encouraged to do as well as they can in life and where they are taught to be responsible, positive and 'good' people.

I never defend or criticise SAH parents or working parentd but I do object to xenia constantly attacking and belittling SAHM or women in low income jobs.

MordionAgenos. I agree with your post. Some people are too defensive about how they live their lives. I guess they feel better about themselves if they attack other people.