My unreserved apologies

[jabed]

It seems I have upset MN posters.

I am sorry if you have been upset by me. I apologise.

I wont do it again.

Jabed

[Way2Go]

xenias exDH was a SAH parent. I would never make accusations as to what he was required to do to be provided 'board and lodging' by xenia

[pianomama]

Thats interesting. In my experience of high earning motivated women and SAH fathers, the latter don't seem to cope with it very well. As kids grow up (again, from my personal experience) the marriages/prtnership often break. I remember a friend of mine who was working all hours while DH styed home with 3 kids confessed that sometimes she woul "sleep with him so he would not take his frustration on children"...

[MordionAgenos]

That'll probably be the trigger for the excessive drinking and the tumultuous sex then.

Perhaps I have a more interesting future in store than I had previously thought.

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

slipshod I will quote and respond to your points in turn:

*I find your posts far more irritating. The above quote is not an accurate paraphrase of what either Xenia or Jabed says. It is what you have decided they mean. Actually neither of them ever launch personal attacks in the way some of your posts appear to. Neither do they use ad hominem argument as you do (which is, of course no argument at all).

You claim to support inclusiveness, acceptance of all and you strongly support maintained schools and, by implication, the diversity and acceptance that the philosophy and practice of the best embrace, yet appear unwilling to accept or include those whose opinions differ from your own. I may disagree sometimes with the above posters but am never offended by them. How can you be offended by an idea or opinion? I am offended by those who are rude about individual posters however. *

I'm afraid they have said all of that and more. As unbelievable and unpalatable as it may be, Jabed has said that bad manners and violent behaviour are the norm in comprehensives - or secondary moderns, or council schools, as he sometimes calls them. Xenia has said that in a comprehensive you will be steered towards hairdressing etc because that's what everyone else is doing, and she has said that good mothers get out there and earn £100k a year to send children privately. She's also made various unpleasant comments about accent, pronunciation etc as a state school problem.

That's not a personal attack, it is true. And of course it is ad hominem, because we're talking about two particular people, how could it not be?

I do support inclusiveness and diversity: that's why I and glad to say that my daughters' school would accept Jabed's and xenia's children if they wanted to go there! I'm not religious or right wing, but I'm glad my children go to school with, and debate with, people who are. By comparison, of course, my children wouldn't be allowed through the door of the schools those two posters favour.

[pianomama]

I wonder if there are positive succesful stories with SAHF, like I said, few families I know in this sitution ended up in badly. Mother's were never happy with the way children were growing up, father's were frustrated with mothers, children didn't benefit greatly from being in a not very happy environment.
Dont want to set feminists off, but I think we as women are a more natural choice for caring for children and having carrers (or not). After all, we are officialy better t multi-tasking ( - I managed to supervise violin practice, cook dinner and express myself on MN at the same time in the last 20 mins)

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Or perhaps we've been sold the myth that we are better at multi tasking to console us for frequently being made to do just that?

[MordionAgenos]

I just checked with DH and he said we are definitely doooooooooomed. :(

Ah well, never mind eh.

[Xenia]

(Way2G, that's not true. We both worked very much full time.)

On the sex point many of the husbands of housewives get a very poor deal indeed as compulsory sex is no longer part of the marriage contract in English law and see thousands of mumsnet threads about women with children not giving their men as much sex as the man want. So in a sense housewives in breach of contract... I jest but there is a serious point - man marries clever thin woman with exciting career; woman gives up career, wears leggins all day and gets very fat and goes off sex.. man swaps wife for original version of wife,... stupidly lets second wife become a housewife too... repeats cycle ad nauseum.

The serious point is indeed as Mord says - that we need to go on and on about women who work being just right, not second rate, not trying to have it all and failing at everything, but perfectyl all right, as all right as working fathers and we need to say it until we are blue in the face - that believe it or not we have wonderful rounded lives with work and chidlren just as men have and our children do as well if not better than those of housewives.

[pianomama]

Well, I would never mention this to my DH, but in the above situation if it was up to him , the dinner would have been burned, practice would not have been started and MN message would have been 5 pages long.
And TOSN, I actully enjoy multi-tasking, never felt that I was being made to do so.

[Xenia]

(I think I might be being misrepresented about my views on schools too. On many mumsnet threads I have said 50% at Oxbridge come from state schools - although most are state grammars. I have never said some of the things attributed to me aboove about schools although I have said if women earn a lot they can buy the best education for their children. If they wallow in impoverished housewifery their children may languish in the worser versions of our comprehensives)

[breadandbutterfly]

iseenodust - thanks.

TOSM - not sure why you're getting stick - you just said more or less verbatim exactly what jabed and xenia do say frequently.

Re the point about rich people being horrid (or drunk and promiscuous or whatever), I don't think it's essential, but it can help.

In my own line of work, if I could just abandon my principles I could be rich very quickly. Making an honest million is quite hard. Making a dishonest million is quite easy and a billion even easier eg prob the majority of modern millionaires are magnates in metals, coal, etc etc who bought up huge industries at knock-down prices eg as the Soviet Union collapsed, and are all corrupt as hell. The lesson about v powerful people in the media eg Murdoch etc seems to be that at the very least, absolute power corrupts absolutely, or possibly, absolute power tends to go to those who were v corrupt already. :( Because they are not hampered by morals in getting their way. Or possibly because a certain type of psychopathy leads people to seek power and money as a visible symbol of that power.)

[Way2Go]

xenia fair enough, sorry, I thought you had said he was a SAH parent.

[fabsmum]

What I find really odd about Xenia's assertion that everyone should get out there and earn mega-bucks to send their children to private school, is the assumption it's based on that everyone CAN earn 100K a year if they just want it enough.

Where is the evidence that everyone can do everything, as long as the desire is there?

I'd love to be a surgeon, but I don't have it in me. Or to be a top flight lawyer or an accountant.

I think it's incredibly cruel, arrogant and a bit... mad... to tell people that there is one way to be a good parent, and that is to earn loads of money, when most people simply aren't capable of succeeding in the sorts of jobs that pay those salaries.

I think everyone has strengths and must play to them. Some women have amazing patience and creativity with small children, and for those mothers staying at home is fulfilling and exciting. I think children who have mothers like this are incredibly lucky. Other women have no patience and find caring with their small children boring and beneath them. Those women are best off contracting this care out to someone who will take pleasure in their child.

On a personal note, I chose to be at home with my children because I couldn't enjoy life when I was working and running a home. And I really, really treasure the time I spent with them. I wasn't thinking about turning them into captains of industry, I was just enjoying being with them. I honestly can't think of anything I could have done with my time that would have given me or them more happiness.

[breadandbutterfly]

Well said fabsmum. Though I could have earned 100K fairly easily, I chose not to for the reasons you describe - because money is worth a lot less than being around dcs.

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Thanks bread

The thing is, what actually happens when everyone earns £100k and uses private school etc? How will that work? Or do we accept there must always be some dross who will wipe the bottoms etc?

[breadandbutterfly]

ubermenschen and untermenschen, TOSM - and look where that idea got us last time.

[breadandbutterfly]

That is,of course, what the Tories are aiming at...

[Way2Go]

Nice post Fabmum

I was mostly a SAHM and enjoyed it immensely. I loved not working. My DH is lovely and has always respected me in every way possible, as I have him. The suggestion I would have sex with him for 'board and lodging' is offensive to me and to him.

[MordionAgenos]

Sigh. I'm obviously in the wrong line of business given that it;s obviously very easy to earn £100k in some other, unspecified, lines of work. :( Again, how sad.

[kerala]

au contraire about fat and frumpy. The SAHM I know are super slim and slinky from all the gym/sport opportunities their lives afford them.

Also I consider the term "housewife" outdated and borderline offensive - along with "career girls" its a way of belittling women.

[Silibilimili]

I don't find xenia. offensive. I find her views ill conceived, and I feel she is a bored housewife making up on here what may have been but overall I find her refreshing, intelligent and consistent in her views. Whatever they are.

It's people like rabbit who grate/irritate me as they are so verbose. And even after reading loads and loads from them, you still can't figure out what they are trying to get at or what camp they are in. Sorry rabbit, I like you really. Then I read posts from bread, who always seems to echo rabbit, and I think they are one and the same.

[Sparklingbrook]

Anyway, when's jabed back? His thread is even more hijacked than before.

[Yellowtip]

The thing which suggests to me that Xenia's success is down overwhelmingly to sheer hard work rather than high intelligence is that her arguments are so black and white. There's a world out there beyond the N.London commercial law ghetto, where the vast majority live.

[Yellowtip]

Well it's not all about jabed, so he's probably gone off to get pissed and have tumultuous sex (he must be v. v. rich, only working part time as a teacher and having a SAHDW.)

[Silibilimili]

Maybe they are in 'benefits'????