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Original poster

Is it always right to give parents the final say?

71 replies

mogwai · 14/03/2006 20:57

Just playing devil's advocate really. Was having this discussion at work today.

I'm currently working with a seven year old boy who has multiple problems, none of which are insurmountable. He has plenty of potential.

He is educated in a mainstream school across the road from his house. Everyone involved knows, off the record, that his mum wants him to attend that school because it's easier for her to pick up/drop off and because she doesn't want people to think her child goes to a special school. She's more or less said exactly that.

He's making very little progress (ok, no progress) and now the other kids are starting to notice he's different and they don't play with him so much these days. The teachers have acknowledged that he can't access the curriculum so he's taken out of the classroom for 15 hours a week and educated in the entrance hall by a series of (not very good) teaching assistants.

In addition, because he doesn't attend a unit, but still needs specialist teaching, a whole range of professionals have to visit the school every week, at huge cost to the NHS and LEA. There's nowhere for any of these professionals to work, so they can't really do their job.

Yet his mum gets the final say and she won't remove him. Is this right?

OP posts:
AngelaD · 14/03/2006 21:04

Yes because she has to live with the consequences when all said and done.
Although personally I wouldn't give her the option, mainstream school isn't the best place for a lot of children.

Original poster
mogwai · 14/03/2006 21:08

the parents always get the casting vote.

They are always asked their opinion, which is absolutely right.

But do you give them the casting vote?

And when it's not working out, after giving it a good shot, should they be able to block a transfer, if it's in the child's best interests (in the opinion of professionals).

She has to live with the consequences and so does her child.

OP posts:
AngelaD · 14/03/2006 21:10

I would like to think i know my child better than the "professionals" so yes they should have the casting vote, as I said the parents have to live with their actions long after the "professionals" have gone home.

starlover · 14/03/2006 21:13

angela yes, she has to live with the consequences... but so does her son!

doesn't he have the right to a proper education and to fulfill his potential?

coppertop · 14/03/2006 21:18

I think it's the start of a slippery slope once you start taking away choice. How many parents of NT children would be happy if the powers-that-be said "Well I know you like this school and your child has been here for x number of years but we'd like to move them to another school. Sorry but you have no choice"? Not too many, I would imagine.

How likely is it that the child would get a place in a special school? This is a genuine question btw as I know that in this area it's virtually impossible for a lot of families.

Original poster
mogwai · 14/03/2006 21:23

well that's the reason I posted really. I agree about the slippery slope thing. It's tough isn't it?

I think that many parents make exactly the right choice for them and their child, and I'm totally in favour of that. I've seen kids I thought would sink in mainstream really flourish (and I've seen plenty of them sink).

He'd get a place in a unit quite easily actually.

OP posts:
starlover · 14/03/2006 21:25

it'd be different if the parent was supportive and if the child was actually doing ok at school.

but the fact is he isn't. and it's HIS future that counts...

Original poster
mogwai · 14/03/2006 21:27

(should have added, my boss has told me to pull out of his treatment now because the staff in the school don't have to time or resources to do extra work with him. If he went to a unit, he'd get regular input from a variety of professionals because the school would be geared up for it.

Not sure how I feel about pulling out)

OP posts:
coppertop · 14/03/2006 21:28

Do the parents have any contact with other families who have children with similar SN? I think a lot of people still associate "special school" with how those schools were 20 or 30 years ago. The family may not realise how much things have changed and how much progress a child can make in them. Hearing about it from other parents might help.

DominiConnor · 14/03/2006 21:29

Yes because she has to live with the consequences when all said and done.

Well, it's the child who lives with the consequences...

Original poster
mogwai · 14/03/2006 21:40

That's a good idea Coppertop. But I'm almost 100% sure that his mum will not change her mind.

She got very shirty at his annual review. the Educational Psychologist wrote her report about four weeks later and would not commit herself to saying that the child had learning difficulties because she thinks that his mum doesn't want to hear it.

Not sure why all these professionals are being paid because (1) we can't do our jobs and (2) we are supposed to write what the mum wants to hear rather than what we actually find.

OP posts:
Original poster
mogwai · 14/03/2006 21:42

(hmmm not playing devils advocate now! But I do think it's hard to legislate. Perhaps kids like this will always fall through the net, but they are the most vunerable and it disturbs me).

OP posts:
moondog · 14/03/2006 21:43

Listening in with great interst Mogwai....Wink

ScummyMummy · 14/03/2006 21:49

Why is there nowhere for the professionals to work?
Why are his TAs no good?
Why is he educated in an entrance hall?
Why don't the school have the time and resources to work with him?

Sounds like the school is crap.

Original poster
mogwai · 14/03/2006 21:50

(This issue has bugged me for ages Moondog, but this case has brought it into focus. Bloody mainstream! Spent 30 precious minutes waiting for the staffroom to be free so I could assess a child today (and then had to clear up a buffet lunch before we could begin, FFS))

OP posts:
Eve2005 · 14/03/2006 21:51

if she's not willing to give him the support he needs now then she certainly wouldn't give it if he rights as a parent were taken away and he was moved to a unit, and from what i've seen, the kids in special needs schools still need a hell of a lot of home support to fulfill their potential.

the choice shouldn't be taken away from her, it sounds like she's been sheltered form the truth of his condition so as not to upset her and probably doesn't understand how serious the situation has become. someone needs to sit her down and be brutally honest about his future and help her to make the right choice herself.

Original poster
mogwai · 14/03/2006 21:54

Scrummy

There's nowhere to work because the school was built in the days when SEN kids were in SEN schools. They don't have any extra rooms except the staffroom, which is ALWAYS being used by someone else (or has midday assistants gossiping in it!). Visiting professionals have no clout and can't just walk in and chuck people out of the staffroom.

And that's why he's educated in the entrance hall (as a matter of fact, whoever is working with him has to answer the door because the secretary is part-time!)

They have no time because they spend a lot of time on curriculum issues, trying their best to deliver what they can.

It's an average school, I'd say

OP posts:
Original poster
mogwai · 14/03/2006 21:56

(I wonder how many parents realise that the visiting professionals and LSAs are often working in corridors/entrance halls/noisy staffrooms with their children?)

OP posts:
Original poster
mogwai · 14/03/2006 21:57

going to bed, but will check back to see what people think about this issue.

OP posts:
coppertop · 14/03/2006 21:59

The school set-up sounds like a nightmare. What does OFSTED have to say about how inclusion is implemented (or not!)?

joanna4 · 14/03/2006 23:08

I am all for inclusion I support children in mainstream schools with very specific conditions.
One I am thinking of in particular sounds very similar case mum wont acknowledge and it is difficult when people are always saying what they can and cannot do I have spoken to her enough to know a little about how she feels.
Her child was a perfect candidate for special unit but mum wouldnt have it and now since october when i came in as small support she is working at a higher level than some of the other children in the classroom.
It grates me to read that this child is taken away from the classroom setting to be taught by individuals who dont sound as though they are commited to getting the very best they are able-there is always a way I have learnt this over the past few months.
At the end of the day it is mums choice for whatever reason she says or privately believes.As long as he is in that school he is owed the same duty of care and attention the others who attend get it sounds like school have washed their hands of the whole situation.Wouldnt it be better to allow the professionals who come in to allocate specific work suitable to his needs this is what I do and it does work but you need commitment.
In the case of the child i am thinking of the sending of her to a specialist unit would mean-
splitting her from her twin
sending her on a bus with a stranger to a place at the other side of the city(i know this person would in time be familiar)
she is only 5 by the way.
so going back to the original question yes i believe mums (and dads) should have the casting vote.

ScummyMummy · 14/03/2006 23:08

Sounds laughable in inclusion terms. I'm a fan of special schools, don't get me wrong, but the paltry, pathetic, shitty approach to including children with special needs in mainstream makes me spit, it really does. And it often starts with so called professionals whinging about having to go and build a programme around a child's needs. Why on earth should that be such an such an alien concept? Er, because people who should know better make it so.

coppertop · 15/03/2006 10:34

Ds1's school is an ordinary mainstream primary in what is classed as a deprived area. The school was built long before the days of the inclusion policy yet they still have an excellent track record with children with SN.

Taking this child out of the school and putting him into a unit is the easy way out for the school IMHO. What about the next child who has SN? Will they too have to put up with this poor level of education too while the staff shrug their shoulders and say "Sorry, but we can only give you access to a desk in the entrance hall and teaching assistants who don't know what they're doing"?

I wonder how much progress NT children would make in that kind of environment. How many parents would accept the criticism that it's somehow their fault because they chose the school??

Blu · 15/03/2006 10:42

I agree with Scummy. Mainstream schools have statutory duty to be able to be able to encompass a level of SEN - either the LEA or the govornors are not stepping up, here. Indeed, the SEN room is a portakabin in DS's school, but a very excellent portakabin it is, as is the SENCO and his determination to see all the relevant funding for SEN children coming into the school and used for it's proper purpose.

Of course, it may be that this particular child could be better suported in a special unit - but that doesn't excuse shoddy SEN provision in the mainstream for children for whom inclusion is the better route.

TearsBeforeBedtime · 15/03/2006 10:48

agree with Scummy and Blu. Even if the mother is not making the "right" choice, that doesn't mean the Mainstream school should be getting away with providing such poor support and conditions.