Is it always right to give parents the final say?

[mogwai]

Just playing devil's advocate really. Was having this discussion at work today.

I'm currently working with a seven year old boy who has multiple problems, none of which are insurmountable. He has plenty of potential.

He is educated in a mainstream school across the road from his house. Everyone involved knows, off the record, that his mum wants him to attend that school because it's easier for her to pick up/drop off and because she doesn't want people to think her child goes to a special school. She's more or less said exactly that.

He's making very little progress (ok, no progress) and now the other kids are starting to notice he's different and they don't play with him so much these days. The teachers have acknowledged that he can't access the curriculum so he's taken out of the classroom for 15 hours a week and educated in the entrance hall by a series of (not very good) teaching assistants.

In addition, because he doesn't attend a unit, but still needs specialist teaching, a whole range of professionals have to visit the school every week, at huge cost to the NHS and LEA. There's nowhere for any of these professionals to work, so they can't really do their job.

Yet his mum gets the final say and she won't remove him. Is this right?

I've been teaching in the entrance hall - very hard for pupils to concentrate with phones ringing, school fruit being delivered, people chatting etc. I agree many parents would be shocked. (Dh finds it hard to believe that when I was on TP as a secondary music teacher in the mid 80s one group always used the toilets for small group composition work!)
I'm thinking of taking ds away from the same school - will speak to teacher today. I know I should fight for the right support for him (he's only school action atm) but it will be too late for him if I start campaigning - there is no dyslexia expert there.

I just get so frustrated that we are failing so many children. I can imagine ds asking me in a few years why I didn't teach him to write. I'm getting a reputation as a stroppy mum but my child has to come first.

Yes; I am a bit knee-jerk in my support for inclusion, but this school just isn't getting it. At all. He's not exactly reaching his potential, is he, so any assessment of how he'd do in a special unit is biased.

I have a son in a unit and I think there is a degree of stigma attached to all special provision. So I can understand how hard it is for a parent to make that choice.

I so wanted my son to be in mainstream provision, I had no idea of the reality of "inclusion". Luckily for me I had a very forthright Portage teacher who made it clear that ds would not be a suitable mainstream child and that his potential would be best met elsewhere.

I think all staff involved with sn children should be entitled to give their opinion and reasons for their particular decisions regarding a child.

I have seen some very misplaced children where the parents have had the final say and it is the child that suffers.

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but it also interfere with the teaching of the other children.

At the school I work at there are 2 very disruptive boys in one class and they disturb the class regularly. One of our staff members has a son who is in that class and she feels it is very unfair that these two boys needs are always top priority and the rest of the class is not given much consideration at all.

Another example I can think of is when I worked at my sons nursery there was a girl who would have benefited from another year at nursery before primary one but the mother was adament (sp?) that her her dd went to primary one. The girl is now having great difficulty in school and this is taking time time away from the other pupils.

this isn't inclusion, though, it's just window dressing.
Yes I think the final decision should be with the parents BUT the professionals in this situation have a professional responsibility to stop skirting around the issue and tell it like it is. I am afraid in shielding the mother from the truth is a big big part of the problem and I would lay much of the responsibility there. The parents have all sorts of emotional issues - it is up to the professionals to stick their neck out for the sake of the child.
btw I am interested in the tone of your question, that parents have a free choice or close to it. ime it has not been so easy to persuade the LEA to move a child to a special school. experience no doubt varies.

When ds1 was starting school I asked to lok round special school and was told it was inappropriate (for a non verbal child) and that it was mainstream or the (very crap) autism unit. We thought the unit would be unsuitable and so sent him to mainstream with a full time 1:1

After ds1 had been at the school 4 terms we had an annual review when it became apparent to me that the schoo were absolutely failing him in every sense of the word. They were frighteningly clueless.

After the meeting I rang the SALT and asked if she thought they were coping, she said she thought they were tyring but completely out of their depth. Next I rang the ed psych and asked the same thing. She said the same. So I asked if he could go to special school, she said fine and arranged for us to look round a couple.

The point is- no-one told me. The first hint I had was when ds1's private SALT attended shortly before the meeting and came out and said she had concerns. Everyone else could see it wasn't working, but no-one told us. When I picked him up I was told he had been 'fine'. After the meeting I insisted on a proper home school link book set up in away that actually recoreded what we wanted to know. With a non-verbal child if you are not told you don't know.

So my point is.

1. Inclusion sucks.
2. Parental choice my arse.

It happens at the other end of the spectrum as well. Just met with some parents with HFA children. School SENCO has changed. School can no longer cope. There is no suitable alternative provision,

A huge problem with the mainstream school of the HFA children I saw today is that the kids are being educated in corridors. And there are no quiet areas.

DS1 used to spend his entire time at mainstream legging from his desk (next to the corridor) down the corridor.

Now he can't because he can't reach the classroom door. The difference in having staff who actually undersatand the condition is even bigger.

But no choice shouldn't be removed from parents. The other SLD school we looked at was not suitable for ds1.

The problem is with lack of suitable provision, lack of interest in schools for inclusion, lack of space to accomodate children with SN. Often parents have very little choice. particularly true say of parents of children with AS who may be unsuited to mainstream, but whose only alternative is EBD which is completely inappropriate.

Mistymoo- but did the mother have a choice. I looked into ds1 spending another year at nursery and couldn't because he woud have had to go straight from nursery to the more formal year 1- missing out reception. Completely inappropriate.

getbakainyourjimjams - mother of girl in P1 did have a choice, the deputy head and nursery teacher had several meetings with her and she was not having any of it. There were others in nursery who stayed back and they have really done well this year.

It is heart breaking to see some children with HFA in mainstream.

I have taught a boy with a diagnosis in a class of 20 with no support at all.

The poor lad simply could not cope. No matter that I kept to the letter and spirit of his IEP, no matter what I did I could not meet his very complex needs. Amongst other things an undiagnsed PDA which made him essentialy impossible to teach in the mainstream setting. He learned nothing in my lessons. And when he was in the lessons no one else learned either.

Now the latter is not the concern (not should it be) of his parents, but he cannot cope in MS, unless he is given total 1 to 1 and taught in isolation. So what inclusion is that? And how much is the poor boy benefiting from his 'inclusion'? Answer very little if nothing at all.

So sad.

According to one of my local councillors "Any child that can survive mainstream will be mainstreamed"

utterly shocking! How vile! What an utter unmitigated ARSE!

mistymoo - you've misunderstood- I'm asking whether the girl would have been able to go into the reception year , or whether she would have had to go straight into her chronological year group (so missing out the 1st year of school). That is the situation here. You can delay starting school until the term after you are 5, but if that means you are the age for year 1, then you go into year 1 and miss the reception year at school. That to me isn't a choice.

maddie- we were told the same. When I asked the ed psych about looking at special schools when ds1 was 4 I was told "because he is coping with a mainstream nursery he has to go to a mainstream school"

What utter bollocks, but of course I was new to it all. The "mainstream" nursery was run by someone with a very big interest in autism, who was PECS trained and had lots of experience with autism. His mainstream school had zero understanding of autism and no-one PECS trained within the entire building (apart from me at home and dropping off time but I think they would rather have walked over hot coals than ask me for PECS advice),

Christie- sounds like the special schools near us. DS1's has run down buildings (fab facilities though), but is so warm and caring and friendly. Lots of staff have been there years and years and years.

Whilst you might get the odd parent who is unable to face reality from talking to people I think the biggest problem (especially at the higher functioning end) is complete lack of any sort of suitable alternative provision.

Jimjams - with Mistymoos reference to P1 I am presuming she is in Scotland and so I will cheekily answer for her. We don't have Reception, all children start straight into P1 - so the situation as you describe wouldn't arise North of the Border.

HTH

Baronness Warnock has publicly admitted that the 'inclusion at all costs' policy of the last few years has been a disaster.
Before I started work as a salt 10 years ago,I was utterly set against special schools.
Now I have completely revised my opinion,based more than anything else on the poor mental health of many children who have been put through m/s schooling which has turned them into nervous wrecks.

but gomez P1 is reception isn't it. So in that case does it mean that the child goes straight into P2 (which they would have to do the equivalent of here). Our LEA are very very unkeen on children moving out of their year group. In most cases they do not allow it.

mizmiz that is such a good point. When ds1 was in ms (and everyone had begun to admit it had gone pear shaped), I was told how difficult it was for the staff, and how wearing. My friend (with a dd with AS) is currently being told the same thing - how hard its been on the LSA. Well I'm sorry, but they can go home have a glass of wine, apply for a different job etc. The children who are giving them a hard time are doing so because they are so stressed and destroyed by the experience. Ds1 now is a completely different child to the one who left mainstream. And the 2 annual reports he had last year (one at ms one at special) sound as if they are talking about different children. The mainstream monster/freak. The funny, cheeky, amusing, affectionate special school child.

B?JJ my line manager is itching to do some research on this.
I know it is anecdotal but I have seen so many children blossom in special schools.
Not in fancy exams or certificate,but in developing a sense of self,pride in hard earned achievements (things like managing to travel independently by bus after a lot of work in the classroom)enjoying real friendships (not just learning how to text the 1:1 assistant) and actually enjoying coming in every day.

I think that says more than anything.

Not really like reception I don't think.

In respect to ages for example my DD1 born May 2000 started school in August 20005 aged 5 + 3 months. She has class members who have just turned 5 in January/Feb 2006 but also some who have just turned 6 in Jan Feb as there parents chose 'hold' them back a year - this is a perfectly accepted and the LA will provide funded nursery provision for an additional year.

My DD could have applied for an accelerated place and started in Auust 2004 - but much less common. I have a friend whose DD was having behavioural issues who was was born in Dec 1999 and she had no problems in delaying her start (even though she wasn't in the automatic defer on request period of Jan/Feb)and she started school in August 2005 too. I have never heard of of a child delaying starting school at beginning in P2.

I find it strange that my nephew who is 1 year old than DD started school 2 years before her - both following normal rules.

Not sure if that answers the question thou's . Just explains how it can happen.

Beginning in P2 I mean. Sorry full of errors hope you can make sense of it.

Thanks gomez - I am in Scotland!

And I understand what you said