Is it always right to give parents the final say?

[mogwai]

Just playing devil's advocate really. Was having this discussion at work today.

I'm currently working with a seven year old boy who has multiple problems, none of which are insurmountable. He has plenty of potential.

He is educated in a mainstream school across the road from his house. Everyone involved knows, off the record, that his mum wants him to attend that school because it's easier for her to pick up/drop off and because she doesn't want people to think her child goes to a special school. She's more or less said exactly that.

He's making very little progress (ok, no progress) and now the other kids are starting to notice he's different and they don't play with him so much these days. The teachers have acknowledged that he can't access the curriculum so he's taken out of the classroom for 15 hours a week and educated in the entrance hall by a series of (not very good) teaching assistants.

In addition, because he doesn't attend a unit, but still needs specialist teaching, a whole range of professionals have to visit the school every week, at huge cost to the NHS and LEA. There's nowhere for any of these professionals to work, so they can't really do their job.

Yet his mum gets the final say and she won't remove him. Is this right?

Aye but you would . Apologies for butting in but wasn't sure if you were still around and was excited that there was a question I could answer....

I know what you mean.....

Where are you?

(Sorry for hijack )

oh it's different from NI then where P1 appears to be the equivalent of reception started at 4 (afaik anyway). But anyway- I just meant that if the choice was nursery but completely missing the first year of school then its not really much of a choice.

Did you see my thread on SN mizmiz yesterday \link{http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=1373&threadid=155310&stamp=060315103222\here}. Really that is far more important than anything academic. I doubt ds1 will ever write his own name, (well he might I guess but not in any useful sense), but the year of work that has gone into that achievement yesterday means a lot to me. It's a massive improvement and one that will hopefully improve the quality of ds1's life considerably. Also the added extra- the puppet show. At mainstream he never managed more than 1 minute in assembly, now he can sit through puppet shows- gives me hope that one day he;ll manage the cinema or theatre and thus his world will be a little bit bigger and a little bit more enjoyable. None of that would be remotely possible at mainstream. He'd still be not eating and not accessing anything.

Hijack continues - Stirling. And you?

There is another Scottish Meet-up planned in Edinburgh for 22nd April - come along.

Gomez - 20 miles north of Inverness! Meet up seems a bit far away for me I think.

getbakainyourjimjams - It sounds like your ds is doing better now. I hope it continues. All the best.

ooh loads of interesting points, thanks for your replies.

Hard to discuss this at work sometimes, people are pretty indoctrinated into believing that it's all ok when it's plainly not.

The thing about "surviving mainstream" is so so true.

Out local consultant has now 'changed his mind' about inclusion for children with ASD....Took his flipping time, and it was the kids that suffered in the mean time.

That is not to say some children don't do well in MS. But they are the minority......and only if they get the support that they need, Otherwise the school fails them and it is all just a cynical cost cutting measure

ASD is, I think and gather from talking to a lot of people, the huge exception in a lot of people's feelings about inclusion.

I agree with Martianbishop it the majority of cases in is really difficult for a teacher to cope with some SEN. With up to 30 in a class, the most able want more, SEN need individual worksheets and then there is a selection of horrors who need to have their behaviour managed for a significant amount of the lesson. Certainly some SN (not all) need a curriculum that is catered to their needs and from the half dozen schools that I have worked in that is impossible, because there is not enough qualified staff, enough space or enough budget. Too many SN kids do not reach their potential and it is time for some parents to demand quality SN provision which means a tailored curriculum! Just by sitting in a mainstream class does not mean inclusion. Secondary schools kids can be really mean to SN kids.

there are a series of failures happening here which are culminating in the degredation of this childs education.

it may well be easier for this mother to take and pick the childup from this school - who knows what else she may have to deal with in a day - and why shouldne hse take the easy route.

this kid should not be taught in the hallway - the gossips should be fucked off and a room should be created where this child can gain the maximum educational value from this situation.

in my non qualified opinion two things need to happen

your department needs to ENSURE this child recieves the best support and care to allow him to have an education he damn well is as entitled to as any other child in this country.

if concerns are so very grave then there needs to be regular communiation with the parents to ensure that they are fully aware of the facts.

this is piss poor were in an age where technology allows people to play poker with each otehr from all over the world.

i can work from barbados and print stuff in Hove.

but we cant get a workable area for a child to have a decent education - becuase it means someones going to have to tell some hairy arsed teachers to move their fucking coffee?

I agree with your sentiments, but the school are never going to physically build a room for this child.

And the hairy arsed teachers will simply never move.

I'm afraid I now have many years experience of inclusion and this isn't the worst case I've seen

oh custy I wish you were secretary of state for education :o

Custy when you are in charge of education - can you please do the following

1. Supply money to make sure that there is suitable space in which to educate children - make it clean, light and big enough
2. Supply more money to reduce class sizes to say 22
3. Allow children who can not access the standard curriculum to follow another
4. Allow for those primary kids who can not really read and write properly time to develop those skills so that they can access the national curriculum
5. Ensure that all secondary schools are properly cleaned at the end of every day
6. Ensure that we have enough books for every child in the class
7. Can we have ICT equipment that is up-to-date and is maitained
8. Ensure that there is sufficent paper, pencils etc for everyone in the class. (You would not believe the number of kids who come to class without the correct equipment)
9. Do not allow parents to take kids on holiday during term time as that then also everyone else in the following lessons waiting for them to catch up

10. Allow schools to exclude those pupils who abuse teachers on a regular basis. 11. Allow teachers to have time to go to the toilet between 8.40 and 3.15 - I can't drink coffee on three days a week because I do one lesson after another and have break-time and lunch-time duty. The spare half an hour I do have is spent on detentions or chasing missing coursework 12. Allow any child to learn a musical instrument not just the ones who can afford the extra lessons and the hire of the instrument 13. Please do something about the state of the rubbish that passes as lunch in secondary schools 14. Make it compulsory for all parents to come to parents evening and see the teachers for every subject

and please can you let me say 'good bye and good luck in the future because you will need it' to those pupils who say:
'I'm not bothered',
'no I'm not working today',
'my mum/dad says that I don't have to do ICT/Maths'
'I aint doing it'
'go on - make me'
and that way the pupils who want to learn can have constructive and productive lessons

Sorry if I sound like a hairy-arsed teacher - but after a few years of secondary hell I am on the verge of jacking it all in. The majority of teachers and pupils are truly great and I love my 'cheeky chappies'. However education now boils down to money, resources, OFSTED reports and a government initiative every year.

Oooohhhh that sort of thing on casualty tonight!!!

Have skimmed over this thread, there is a child in Ds' class who has behaviour and learning problems, the child's mother refused to get the child assessed, and therefore the school can't get the support the child need. I have spoken to the mother and asked if the child has SN, and she said that 'X has 1~2~1 at home and therefore needs it at school!! The child is an only child. The child is a bully and is very nasty to the other children, but the school's hands are tied.

1. Supply money to make sure that there is suitable space in which to educate children - make it clean, light and big enough

sure i will raise taxes

1. Supply more money to reduce class sizes to say 22

yes i will raise taxes

1. Allow children who can not access the standard curriculum to follow another

i would change the curriculum altogether. with PE, drama, art, woodwork, cooking, pottery, and RE being and extra curricular activity. for which i would raise taxes. and make sure all pupils had a high knowledge of maths, english language and literature, ICT and science. by age 14 there would be an option for kids to learn a trade full time in school with only english and maths being taken at gcse. there would also be the option for 15 year olds to leave school and work.

1. Allow for those primary kids who can not really read and write properly time to develop those skills so that they can access the national curriculum

as above

1. Ensure that all secondary schools are properly cleaned at the end of every day

raise taxes and pay cleaners a decent wage - anything else is poor managment by the school.

1. Ensure that we have enough books for every child in the class

raise taxes

1. Can we have ICT equipment that is up-to-date and is maitained

raise taxes

1. Ensure that there is sufficent paper, pencils etc for everyone in the class. (You would not believe the number of kids who come to class without the correct equipment)

raise taxes

1. Do not allow parents to take kids on holiday during term time as that then also everyone else in the following lessons waiting for them to catch up

i would break up the school year and enforce a unifrom pricingpolicy within the travel industry.
i would also not hold up the class for anyone ( and dont see why this is the case anyway)

10. Allow schools to exclude those pupils who abuse teachers on a regular basis.

this is more complicated than i can explain. my thoughts have something to do with outdated teaching methods, bad parenting and sociatal expectations. i dunno.
11. Allow teachers to have time to go to the toilet between 8.40 and 3.15 - I can't drink coffee on three days a week because I do one lesson after another and have break-time and lunch-time duty. The spare half an hour I do have is spent on detentions or chasing missing coursework

detentions are pants. my kids learn fuck all in detentions often - i say this OFTEN waiting on teachers to turn up - becuase they are busy doing something else. i would ban detentions. they serve no purpose. instead the kids will go to an after schools club and bake rhubarb crumble.

there will be a homework club which is compulsory to attend for those with missing coursework.

teachers may piss at break time like everyone else - and they can take a coffee into the classroom

12. Allow any child to learn a musical instrument not just the ones who can afford the extra lessons and the hire of the instrument

after school activity raise taxes

13. Please do something about the state of the rubbish that passes as lunch in secondary schools

yes indeedy a hot nurishing meal for all children. raise taxes

14. Make it compulsory for all parents to come to parents evening and see the teachers for every subject. if teachers will stay until 9 o'clock to see working parents then fine. also they should work out a better fucking system than have me waiting for 20 mins between seeing each teacher.

and please can you let me say 'good bye and good luck in the future because you will need it' to those pupils who say:
'I'm not bothered',
'no I'm not working today',
'my mum/dad says that I don't have to do ICT/Maths'
'I aint doing it'
'go on - make me'

i would tell those pupils that it is not compusory for them to put in the work. it is compulsory for them to be quiet in lessons. those pupils who cannot be quiet, shall go to daily reviews every evening with a parental advisor, a phychologist, a teacher and a parental advocate. each evening they will sit and discuss the days events.

for which i will raise taxes

ofstead will be disbanded as will all testing until the age of 15. the money saved will go towards the above.

however this child in question is a child with special needs who is not getting the proper resources becuase the system is failing him. not becuase he is disruptive. if there is no other room for this child to learn than a room described as a "gossiping" room then this will be the room. and they can gossip in the hallway where this child is having his education. instead of the massive and expensive teaching resource which is allocated to him answering the door - becuase they are too scared to ask the hairy arsed teachers to move - becuase "they wouldnt anyway"

For once I disagree with you custy over one or two points. I would continue with PE etc as school subjects. I have seen many a holy Terror of a child blosoming when they won the 400m on sports day. Not all kids can be good at everything, having a range of subjects makes sure that mst , if not all kids, can be good at something. It also teaces the able that they can't be good at everything.

We need more supervisors to cover break and lunch times......andI will insist on having a break...I can't take my coffee into my room , it is a lab and breaks H and S

I also feel that I have a total right not to be abused by anyone in school (as do the kids BTW). If I am verbaly or physicaly abused I expect the child to be at the very least withdrawn from my lessons

And I would imagine that the gossiping room would be the staff room. I do feel that these are needed for teachers, it allows us some privacy and respite....also gives us somewhere to work/plan and mark when not in the classroom. Why I am not in my lab it is used by someone else. I have to go somewhere custy

coffee in a special cup with a lid on would be allowed in my govt.

I agree with Custy that it is absolutely pointless forcing kids to stay and that kids should have the option of 'pissing off' and getting a job in Budgens. Those that see the light can then return to an FE college for further study - probably vocational. Plus it would be great to see the return of apprenticeships then we would not have such a problem finding a plumber / electrician etc

I would be all for raising taxes to pay for proper Education and NHS systems - but new Labour, new Conservative have lost their bottle. Labour too interested in getting loans - and probably don't want to lose the middle class vote. So it is the poor kids at the bottom of the pile who lose out. Plus it doesnt get the SEN kid a properly resourced room in which to learn.

By the way I tried the mug with the lid - but was given detention by the headmaster!! Now he is a proper facist.

apprenticeships are here already my son has been offerd a place on one ( proud emoticon)

i think his time at school this last year is wasted. anything other than english and maths is not going to serve him and many other kids like him any use at all. it would have been better to have a greater link with college - or with a work placement so he ( or kids like him) could have references and a job history to compensate.

at the end of the day my kid gets £100 PW for working in the holidays for a building firm ( something i set up) - aint nothing gets him out of bed faster than thinking about £100 PW at 16 yo.